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Beginner paint questions...

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by greaseguy62, Feb 4, 2013.

  1. greaseguy62
    Joined: Nov 3, 2012
    Posts: 36

    greaseguy62
    Member

    Ok I know this has been asked before but I'm still confused. I just bought a 62 ford unibody and stripped it down to basically bare metal. I've done some research and it seems like everybody has a different opinion. My question is what type of primer do I put on bare metal? I've found urethane, and epoxy. And I'm not sure on how many coats? Thanks for the help guys!
     
  2. txturbo
    Joined: Oct 23, 2009
    Posts: 1,771

    txturbo
    Member

    Epoxy is what I always use on bare metal....2 or 3 coats.
     
  3. thebronc4019
    Joined: Oct 25, 2005
    Posts: 216

    thebronc4019
    Member
    from New Jersey

    I second the Epoxy response, it is what I use
     
  4. tb33anda3rd
    Joined: Oct 8, 2010
    Posts: 15,435

    tb33anda3rd
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Connecticut HAMB'ers

    epoxy first, then a urethane filler primer. the epoxy primer has a window of time to top coat, after which you would have to recoat or sand. think of the epoxy as "glue" it will "stick" to the metal, and "stick" to what ever goes over it. but like glue it will only be "sticky" for so long.
     
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  5. SaltCityCustoms
    Joined: Jun 27, 2007
    Posts: 1,210

    SaltCityCustoms
    Member

    Some use epoxy first and a filler primer on top but I personally do my bodywork then a filler primer and then an epoxy primer used as a sealer before I paint so I can get full use of the epoxy, if epoxy is used first you will most likely sand through a few spots while you do your bodywork.
     
  6. matthew mcglothin
    Joined: Mar 3, 2007
    Posts: 970

    matthew mcglothin
    Member

    X2. That's how I do it. It's a personal preference though.
     
  7. Dreddybear
    Joined: Mar 31, 2007
    Posts: 5,926

    Dreddybear
    Member

    x3...
     
  8. 66tintop
    Joined: Nov 7, 2012
    Posts: 450

    66tintop
    Member
    from Canada

  9. hotrod327
    Joined: Oct 19, 2007
    Posts: 76

    hotrod327
    Member
    from Orygun



    x4...

    dammit 66, ya beat me to it!

    x5...
     
  10. tb33anda3rd
    Joined: Oct 8, 2010
    Posts: 15,435

    tb33anda3rd
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Connecticut HAMB'ers

    all five of you use filler primer on bare metal, and then the epoxy? i can understand using it after, also, as a sealer, but i still like to use it under the filler primer.
    i also use a different color epoxy under the filler primer so as i sand the primer, i will have an indicator of when i am getting close to sanding through.
     
  11. j hansen
    Joined: Dec 22, 2012
    Posts: 1,413

    j hansen
    Member
    from sweden

    If you want a really good rustprotection as some of our customer wants, i would
    use this.
    Zinkepoxy 1 coat
    Intergardepoxy 2 coats
    polyuretane 2 coats
    The epoxy you can paint as fast as it dryes,between the epoxy and poly you may
    let it dry for a few hours.But no more than 24 hours then you have to give it a light sanding.
    Normal paint
    Etching primer
    Filler
    Paint
     
  12. epoxy on bare metal
     
  13. HotRodBen1987
    Joined: Jul 29, 2009
    Posts: 691

    HotRodBen1987
    BANNED

    epoxy primer on sand or media blasted metal, etch primer on stuff such as bare sheet metal
     
  14. syxxstring
    Joined: Dec 30, 2010
    Posts: 37

    syxxstring
    Member

    having spent many hours discussing paint with the guy who wrote the HOK tech manual and taking a class from him...
    Approach paint as a system, follow the tech sheets and recommendations for whatever base and clear your going to use. That way your getting a proven combination that will work together.
     
  15. chopolds
    Joined: Oct 22, 2001
    Posts: 5,681

    chopolds
    Member
    from howell, nj
    1. Kustom Painters

    There isn't ONE way etched in stone to do these things. Several different methods can be used successfully! For me, it depends on the circumstances.
    Etch primer->paint.....used on bare steel, no imperfections, or minor ones tolerated (wheels, for instance)
    Etch->high build primer (urethane, poly or epoxy)->paint...used for parts needing minor massaging, light rust pitting, or grindng scratches
    Epoxy->paint....for surfaces that need extra adhesion of primer....aluminum, fiberglass, pot metal.

    But for typical old car builds, with lots of bodywork....I like HOK epoxy. It is a good adhesion primer, it fills very well, and it seals relatively well. It sands easily, not like most epoxies, which are made for adhesion or sealing only, not for hig build and lots of sanding.
    I can do filler work, over, or under the epoxy. I don't have to switch to a high build uro primer, one substrate all the way through. They advertise 5 coats will fill 36 grit scratches, though I don't know who would want to do that! IBut since it does, I usually end my bondo sessions with 80 or 100 grit before first primer.
    I can guide and block it, add more filler and/or poly glaze after my first work up. This stuff even sands easily with 400-500 grit paper for final sanding for paint. Wetsands nicely too!
    I even use this epoxy to seal up old brazing on old customs that were done like that, before putting on bodyfiller, so you don't get the usual brass/bondo reaction, and bubbling off.
    Great adhesion, feathers out nicely, too. The only drawback is in doing repairs. The reducer/resins are pretty aggressive, so they often lift or wrinkle the edges of newly sanded paint and clear, so it's not the greatest for doing paint repairs/blending.
     
  16. txturbo
    Joined: Oct 23, 2009
    Posts: 1,771

    txturbo
    Member

    I use to put my filler on the bare metal....but since then I have seen and ground off so many spots with filler on them that are rusty underneath that I just don't trust that anymore.True....it could have been done and then not primered and sealed right away and given the filler time to absorb moisture and cause the rust...but I don't know for sure. now...I just blast it clean, epoxy prime it with several good coats, then do repairs(fix rust outs, knock out dents/dings) then I touch up those areas with more epoxy primer. After that I use the urethane primer in a contrasting color. That way I can keep track of what stage I'm at in different areas since I only get to work on my projects a little here and there.Also lets me keep from sading through the bottom epoxy coat.
     
  17. greaseguy62
    Joined: Nov 3, 2012
    Posts: 36

    greaseguy62
    Member

    Thanks guys this was very helpful. One more question... Is it a bad idea to leave it in the urethane primer? After I do epoxy then urethane I want to drive it this summer, and I'm not sure on a final color. And any more advice would perfect cause this is my first time doing any of this. Thanks guys.
     
  18. tb33anda3rd
    Joined: Oct 8, 2010
    Posts: 15,435

    tb33anda3rd
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Connecticut HAMB'ers

    since the filler primer has the ability to absorb you are better off sealing it with the epoxy afterward, or a coat of paint to seal it up. ideally, it is best to finish the job to avoid contaminating the primer with, oils, sap, bird doo, etc..
     
  19. robertsregal
    Joined: Oct 2, 2008
    Posts: 743

    robertsregal
    Member

    first find a paint distributor that has the product line you want to use PPG-Sikkens-HOK- ect. I used PPG and found the web site online and accessed the tech sheets for info, talked with sales rep and went with his recomendations of a wash primer rust inhibator-epoxy primer-high build urethane primer-sealer-color-clear. Stay with one product line from start to finish. Having done auto body repair 25 years I still kept tech sheets on the paint bench to always check mixing ratio-flash time-open time, as not to shoot myself in the foot by going by memory. As my fist year auto body instructor Lar's drilled into our heads R-T-L, Read the Label they print them for a reason. Good Luck!
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
  20. This is 3 coats of tinted urethane primer over 3 coats of normal urethane grey primer over body work over vinyl wash primer over etching primer over bare steel. 7 years and 35000 miles with no issues. Car is now blocked down for color. One thing about doing it this way-you find out where you need to make your panel adjustments.
     

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  21. greaseguy62
    Joined: Nov 3, 2012
    Posts: 36

    greaseguy62
    Member

    Thanks asphalt angel that's just the look I was goin for. Thanks for the help everybody.
     
  22. greaseguy62
    Joined: Nov 3, 2012
    Posts: 36

    greaseguy62
    Member

    Thanks guys. Asphalt Angel that car looks awesome. That's just the look I'm goin for kinda semi gloss.. Did you sand at all between any layers or after the final? What brand did you use? Again thanks for the help guys, and anymore advice would be great. About 90% of the truck is sanded, sorry there is no pics yet. There will be soon and maybe a paint thread....
     
  23. SakowskiMotors
    Joined: Nov 18, 2006
    Posts: 1,239

    SakowskiMotors
    Member

    The most important thing is your health. Make sure you use a sanding mask. A real one, not a paper mask. Use a fresh respirator when mixing primer or paint and spraying... with good ventilation.
     
  24. I blocked the high fill grey primer to 320 grit I believe. The top coat is Sherwin Williams 'spectra-prime' tinted urethane primer system-I dont know if they still make it. I added alot of toner to it to get the color I wanted. It is high-fill thick stuff. If you are using it as a top coat-as I did-over reduce it and thin it out .It will be easier to spray and will lay down better. I didn't and ended up with 'dry spray ' patches and some'gluggy' looking spots.
     
  25. greaseguy62
    Joined: Nov 3, 2012
    Posts: 36

    greaseguy62
    Member

    Thanks guys this helped a lot. I do need a better mask I am using the cheap paper ones. Can't wait til the tax money comes. Gonna get all the right equipment, and a brand new set of wide whites. Pics coming soon.
     
  26. chopolds
    Joined: Oct 22, 2001
    Posts: 5,681

    chopolds
    Member
    from howell, nj
    1. Kustom Painters

    PAPER???!!!

    NO, NO, NO!!
    Papaer doesn't do a damn thing except stop some of the dust particles.
    You are dealing with VERY dangerous chemicals here. No place to fool around.
    PLEASE get yourself a GOOD mask. Paint manufacturers recommend a supplied air mask...that is a pump that pumps air into a mask from outside the spray area. That's how dangerous that paint is!
    Absolute minimum, is a high quality organic vapor/charcoal filter mask. And keep it in a sealed bag, so it doens't get contaminated by outside air, and only use it for about 6-8 hours. Make sure you have a real good seal on your face with it. Wear proper gloves, (not cotton/leather!) while mixing and spraying, as well.
    Be sure you have adequate ventialtion where you spray, even after the shoot it done. The paint outgasses fumes for a long time after you're finished. I wouldn't recommend doing this at home.
     
  27. mohead1
    Joined: Jan 18, 2013
    Posts: 554

    mohead1
    Member

    DANG....say that again, but in english?? I wanna redo the crappy paint on the coupe i just got, and a semi-flat black would be good....but i wanna LEAVE it on there.....so bare.....then etching.....and on body work (putty) used urethane....wats vinyl wash??
     
  28. Okay-First a description for vinyl wash primer:

    Vinyl Wash Primer is a two-part, self-etching primer that provides excellent corrosion resistance and promotes adhesion to steel, aluminum, and many zinc coated metals. It is ideally suited for coating OEM E-Coat primer after sanding.Primarily used for the collision repair shop and bare metal parts for use by truck and body builders and body shops where a premium performance etching primer is required.

    So here's what I did-and I am not a body man (so please don't flame me for my efforts)
    -stripped the car to bare steel with a DA
    -applied self etching epoxy based primer
    -did body work that included welding in new steel,panels,grinding,sanding,filler,etc
    -sprayed vinyl wash primer over any area that was worked on or affected by the above
    -sprayed 3-4 heavy coats of high fill urethane primer-(grey)
    -did a little more fitting in a couple spots and re-primed
    -block sanded the entire vehicle with 220 then 320 just to flatten it out
    -sprayed three coats of the 'tinted' urethane primer
    -drove the snot out of it for 7 years
     
  29. greaseguy62
    Joined: Nov 3, 2012
    Posts: 36

    greaseguy62
    Member

    That's a damn good job asphalt angel! That's exactly how I'm gonna do it. What exactly is the vinyl wash for, and is it necessary? And how many gallons total did you have to buy?
     
  30. Thanks for your kind words.
    You dont need too much vinyl wash-maybe a quart-you could just seal it up with more epoxy over bare or welded metal and filler if you wanted.
    The vinyl wash is a thin coat but it has some water proofing characteristics to it-then again-so does the epoxy. I tried to spray the tinted primer like paint-that's where I ran into trouble-the stuff dries too quick-so either apply two wet coats or thin it out and lay on two-three medium wet-it will lay down better that way and you will be able to get around the vehicle without it setting up on you. It will be a smoother finish also.
    Good Luck-get a cheap paint suit with a hood,a box of nitrile gloves and a good respirator-you shouldnt be able to smell the paint when you are spraying it.
     

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