Register now to get rid of these ads!

Technical Bead Rolling & 10 Miles of Bad Road

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by brigrat, Feb 23, 2017.

  1. Da Tinman
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 4,226

    Da Tinman
    Member

    You can fix that with a propane torch by applying heat to the indicated areas, or you could just start welding the panel down and forcing it flat as you go.

    Next time don't use the bead rolls, use the step rolls. You get the same strength with less rise in the panel so your carpet etc will be easier to lay in and unless you go way overboard with your design it will lay flat.
     
    cactus1 likes this.
  2. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Ditto. This has been more or less what I have been doing on my practice pieces, per my mentors instructions, and my test panels have been coming out pretty good. I haven't been stretching quite to full height, just putting a crown in the panel where the beads will go. 6061-T6 next, that shit is too expensive to be making many mistakes, so I hope I've got the hang of it.
     
  3. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Ok. Just trying to learn a little more here. I figured it was best to try to shrink the edges of the panel BETWEEN the beads, rather than right off the ends of the beads. Its bedtime for me, I will have to re-visit the pics in the morning and give this some more thought.
    I am also surprised Da Tinman suggests just trying to clamp it down and weld it, I can see that the heat from welding the edges might shrink the edges a bit, but aren't you risking distorting it even more with that approach? But maybe I tend to be too cautious, because I am a relative beginner at this stuff. Both of you guys know way more about this shit than I do, so I am just trying to learn as much as I can here, and wrap my head around what the various methods are going to do in terms of moving the metal around.
    I'm just glad this is Brigrats problem and not mine!:D but hey, the more we can both learn in the process of trying to figure out all the ways to fix his cluster#$%@, the better, right?:eek::D
     
  4. Da Tinman
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 4,226

    Da Tinman
    Member

    You'd be surprised at how flat that piece will get when you clamp and weld it down. Put a big ol' spot weld at the ends of those beads and it will shrink right up.

    Applying heat to the flats at the ends of the beads before installing will also help take the warp out of it.

    In the end its a floor, paint/undercoat on the bottom, pad/insulation/carpet on top. Its not going to be visible when its done. If you wanted a bare metal floor showpiece there are much better ways of going about it.
     
  5. Playing with paper, making patterns that lay really really flat on irregular surfaces help undersanding bunch. Sometimes for me, thinking to the extreme helps get the "concept" then dial back the proportions to suit the application.

    This might make your head hurt.
    image.jpeg

    Before I put the bead in it at 258 the paper was flat and square and straight.
    Distance 46 is the shortest and that is what the entire sheet wants to be equal to. The control distance if you will.
    however distance 456 is the same as 123 and 789,-- 123 and 789 are flat and relatively straight but 456 follows the up down of the bead and not flat.
    There is a big pucker at 4 and 6 which remember is also the shortest distance.
    At first glance a big fat shrink at 4 and 6 should flatten it out- be careful !!!
    46 is the control distance. 17 is not a straight line any more and neither is 39 with a move towards center so shrinking at 4 and 6 will curve the lines even further towards center. The bead gather at 5 pulled metal from 4&6.
    Shrinking at 2 and shrinking at 8 will bring the distance of 123 and 789 equal to 46.
    Shrinking 2&8 will bring 147 & 369 back to a straight line and the pucker at 4&6 automatically goes away.

    That's how to fix the current situation

    Avoiding the situation would be to stretch at 258 so 4 and 6 didn't pull
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
  6. 1946caddy
    Joined: Dec 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,659

    1946caddy
    Member
    from washington

    Do your pattern on the opposite side just lightly to stretch the panel and flip over to bead roll the panel.
     
    patmanta, JOYFLEA and 59Fins like this.
  7. bct
    Joined: Apr 4, 2005
    Posts: 3,088

    bct
    Member

    i just learned a bunch on this vid


    the part about the smaller female die make a lot of sense since the material is trapped the stretch only occurs on the bead itself
     
  8. VTjunk
    Joined: Jul 5, 2013
    Posts: 286

    VTjunk
    Member

    Use a planishing hammer around the beads and the panel with straighten out. Not as effective as pre stretching, but since you already made the panel.....
     
    biggeorge likes this.
  9. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,247

    oj
    Member

    As odd as it sounds some of that distortion comes from the different wheel speeds of the 2 dies, I'll bet both your dies are 'pinned' to the shaft with a keyway. try pulling one of those keyways out, that will kinda free up one of the wheels (the wheel won't be loose and will actually self-tighten as you it). Your beads are all nice and straight, if you had turned a radius you would really have seen distortion fly thru the panel.
    It might help if you think of how your rear goes around a corner and one wheel travels faster than the other.
     
    falcongeorge and biggeorge like this.
  10. markl350
    Joined: Sep 24, 2010
    Posts: 119

    markl350
    Member

    6061-T6 next, that shit is too expensive to be making many mistakes, so I hope I've got the hang of it.[/QUOTE]

    Whenever I have to do any tight forming with T6 I put it in an oven at 600 deg for 4 hrs min to soften it otherwise it't too brittle and will crack with a tight radius bend. It will age harden back to around T4 condition eventually if your worried about strength. You could also use 5052 H32 sheet aluminum which is much more ductile, cheaper and close in strength.
     
    falcongeorge likes this.
  11. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 2,996

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Couple other things, if its not a power roller, replace the handle with a steering wheel(swapmeet find) that way your grab and pull is the same every time and your body does not twist as you go around the back side of the turn. also if you can set up a table centered at the split of the rollers to support the material, trying to work a flat sheet and holding it in the mid air, any change in angle changes pressure of the beadroll and causes some warpage. Get a machinest to make a couple flat dies equal the the widths of the beads you use one straight thru and the other with a radius end, lay the bead in the groove and from the backside using a slug of Delron work the bead flat or finish the end
     
    falcongeorge likes this.
  12. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    no, quite clear, I get it. Good stuff. I am tempted to take a piece and bead roll it without stretching first, and then try to "fix" it, I bet I would learn a lot.
     
  13. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I have a steering wheel on mine, much easier to use.
     
  14. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 5,153

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    I have a motor on mine much easier to use!
    Guess I should have left the manual handle on and bought a stretcher, shrinker with money saved instead!
    To clear things up a bit, this is a customers '34 Ford P/U that will have a buck naked floor. I told him I could build it out of heavier sheet with no beads or lighter gage with beads. Because he already has the 2 stamped, relieved, riveted up type bomber seats he chose beads in the floor. This is one of those jobs that you will not get paid for every hour worked but come to a "happy" price IF it turns out decent. If it looks like crap I will have to eat it and mark it up to learning something new. Now I have to get to the learning something new part.
    One of the motivations for buying the roller and learning how to use it is I want to build my own floor, with beads & maybe "steps" for the wanna be '36 Roadster.............................................
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
    falcongeorge likes this.
  15. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I said it before on your other thread, a bead roller and a shrinker/stretcher is a great combo.;):D
     
  16. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 5,153

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    You have my permission to hijack my thread, I learn more when you ask the questions! smilyface!
     
    falcongeorge likes this.
  17. Do you know how to tuck shrink?
     
    falcongeorge likes this.
  18. Ed Angel
    Joined: Nov 17, 2015
    Posts: 121

    Ed Angel

    I'm not sure if it was mentioned yet , but if your roller is large enough you can roll the beads first then cut the panel after . The more material you have on the ends of the beads will help you be able to flex,bend, shape, form the material . I learned this a when I first started playing with my machine . The extra size sometimes helps you understand what the metal wants.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  19. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I hope you and I are both learning a lot here!:)
     
  20. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I thought about suggesting that, but I haven't actually tried it yet, so I kept my mouth shut. I'll mention Mindovers DVD again, its got lots of really cool techniques for guys with limited equipment.
     
  21. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 5,153

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    Just talking bead dies here, can you mix and match male and female dies OR are they a match set? You would think if they were a matched set they would be stamped with a number or letter.
    I have to start back to basics, take a look at my 2 largest bead dies, when the shoulders are a net fit doesn't there seem to be a lot of space in the valley area? The width of M&F don't even match?

    DSCF7752.JPG DSCF7751.JPG DSCF7750.JPG DSCF7749.JPG
     
  22. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,247

    oj
    Member

    Don't try to fix it by tuckshrinking.
     
  23. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,247

    oj
    Member

    If you consider the crown of the upper die and the inverse crown of the lower you'll appreciate the difference in speeds I mentioned, that upper die is traveling a lot further than the lower on the same sheet. Try to take one of those screws out of the wheel and run a test piece thru it to see if it distorts as much.
    Sometimes a little oil helps.
     
  24. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 5,153

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    Just miked the dies, there all over the place in diameter, it is a flat spot on shaft-set screw anchor. Going back out again and try some of these idea's mentioned short of buying any new tools at this time. If the actual set up is not up to snuff I could be chasing my tail from here to eternity.............................
     
  25. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I can do this on mine, its keyed. I will try it out.
     
  26. Running the bead clear thru to the edge will certainly release the stress in the sheet and then tuck shrink the beads just at the edge back out to the original stopping point.
     
  27. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 5,153

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    Not really interested in running a bead all the way out or stepping the perimeter. Tuck shrink looks interesting but only after I master a few steps beforehand. Good info to know though..................
     
  28. It would be a two step process. At the end of both steps there would be no beads out to the edge. The second step is erasing the bead by simple tuck shrinking method. The first step is running the bead to form the tuck.
     
  29. metlmunchr
    Joined: Jan 16, 2010
    Posts: 739

    metlmunchr
    Member

    You can use a narrower male with a wider female and it will change the profile shape while maintaining the same overall bead height of the male die.

    The extra space between the profiles on the pairs that most closely match each other is there to reduce the force necessary to form the bead. In metal working the concept is known as air bending.

    In any metal forming operation, you can have air bending or bottoming bending. In air bending the male die primarily determines the shape while the female die provides clearance. The width of the female opening does effect the shape as the male die is constrained to forming between the two sides of the opening, but past that the actual shape of the female contour has little to no effect on the contour formed into the metal.

    As you might guess, bottoming bending uses a male and female pair whose contours are such that when they are closed the space left is just adequate to accommodate the formed piece of metal. While the final contour can be more closely controlled in bottoming, the main drawback is the much higher forces involved.

    A die set designed to close the metal around a wire in forming a wire reinforced edge would be an example of bottoming. A tipping die also functions in bottoming mode. You could tip an edge across an opening in air mode, but the metal will bend in a radius that's dependent on the combination of metal thickness and opening width rather than maintaining a relatively sharp corner like you get in a normal tipping operation.

    Some die sets operate in air mode until the final pass which is done in bottoming mode. An example would be a narrow male die with a full radius on the diameter, used with a female having a shape that matches the male. This would be used to form the U shape for a wire edge. The initial passes thru the roller are air bending the metal by simply pushing it into the groove while the final pass would be done with the dies fully closed and in bottoming mode to form a uniform radius along the edge.

    Re the need to pre-stretch the metal to keep it flat when beading, I'm fairly sure a roll with a crown and slight flat made similar to a lower anvil on an english wheel could be run against a flat roll to get the stretch right along the line of the bead where it needs to be. I own a machine shop so I'll knock out a pair of rolls this week and see if it works and report back.
     
    31Vicky with a hemi and brigrat like this.
  30. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 5,153

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    God I wish I could write like that! This hole thread is a wealth of freely given info, thanks to all and keep it coming!
     
    MyOldBuick and andyapplegate like this.

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2020 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.