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Technical Battery Story/ Food for Thought

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by wicarnut, Sep 24, 2019.

  1. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,199

    Gman0046
    Member

    I learned a long time ago that when it comes to Brakes, Cooling and Steering always buy the best. Trying to save money will leave your ass on the side of the road.
     
  2. Hot Rods Ta Hell
    Joined: Apr 20, 2008
    Posts: 4,057

    Hot Rods Ta Hell
    Member

    What about Electrical (batteries)?:cool:
     
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  3. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 4,056

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    Yeah, and'd love to see people look basic shit up before talking out of their ass, too. LOL!! Things change, not always for the better. It ain't a myth, and it's way, way, beyond losing radio presets.

    I wouldn't have brought it up in the first place if it was a myth.
     
  4. I’m hardly talking out of my ass, vehicle? Make? Model?


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  5. You do live in the frozen tundra, a Battery hates too cold.
     
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  6. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 4,009

    Boneyard51
    Member

    In multiple battery systems, it is best to replace all batteries with similar batteries of the same age. I know that can be expensive, but what I do in my dual battery vehicles is replace both, take the “ good” battery and put it in a non critical vehicle to live it’s life out.
    I you put a new battery in with and old batteries , the new battery will “ fighting” with the old battery and will reduce the life of all batteries. Just one of the many things I learned, both in seminars and experience.





    Bones
     
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  7. texasred
    Joined: Dec 3, 2008
    Posts: 1,061

    texasred
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Houston

    ^^^^^ I learned this when I owned a F250 Power Stroke
     
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  8. Jack E/NJ
    Joined: Mar 5, 2011
    Posts: 585

    Jack E/NJ
    Member
    from NJ

    Sadly it's not a myth. Even new low end vehicles have many of these control modules and sensors sitting all over the place ready to snatch control away from the driver if they go haywire or have a software bug. Probably designed by the same kind of geeks behind the Boeing's stall control module. Scary shit right there. Jack E/NJ

    https://dannysengineportal.com/car-battery/



    ControlModules.jpg
     
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  9. Still didn’t answer my question, don’t believe everything you read.


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  10. VANDENPLAS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2009
    Posts: 2,368

    VANDENPLAS
    Member

    Worked almost 20 years in automotive
    And while yes ,

    Adaptive shift transmissions might bump and flair until they relearn in a few miles

    Engines might sputter and fart until they relearn their air fuel or ( lamda)mixture

    One touch windows will need to be relearned

    Radio codes

    Might have to leave your chip key in the ignition to relearn on basic security systems

    Steering is done by digital encoders so bs on this one

    Entering battery codes into ecm is bull shit

    Possible relearn of hvac system

    In all my years working at jaguar Mercedes Toyota Porsche Bentley Aston Martin and rolls Royce
    Did anything need to be reset by the shop computer.


    A road test yes, play with some buttons for the windows and sunroof yes that’s about it.
     
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  11. Jack E/NJ
    Joined: Mar 5, 2011
    Posts: 585

    Jack E/NJ
    Member
    from NJ

    So I guess by extrapolation that must mean no control module for any vehicle ever failed or had to be reset after replacing the battery. Wow. I'm impressed by those statistics. Geeks must rule afterall! 8^) Jack E/NJ
     
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  12. Thank you, this.


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  13. VANDENPLAS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2009
    Posts: 2,368

    VANDENPLAS
    Member


    This question is different then your original point of computers needing to be reset or relearned after battery replacement.

    Yes, I have seen blown controllers and blown ecms from bad batteries.

    Now working on forklifts and heavy equipment I work on 80 volt 1000 amp systems and yes things can blow with bad batteries or charging systems but stuff needing to be reset by the oem is pretty much bs.

    How do I know this
    I’m 40 and have been working on cars trucks and equipment since I was 16 at a shop, company and dealer level
    With all the training and documents that go along with that.

    But I did read an article about a chick with three tits on the internet.... so that’s gotta be true!!

    Not my real life tittie touching experience I’ve touched at least 93 boobs in my life
     
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  14. Nah....we are talking out of our ass...


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  15. Jack E/NJ
    Joined: Mar 5, 2011
    Posts: 585

    Jack E/NJ
    Member
    from NJ

    Now that I believe. 8^) Jack E/NJ
     
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  16. Luckily I don’t always believe what I read on the internet.


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  17. theboss20
    Joined: Dec 30, 2018
    Posts: 208

    theboss20

    In cold climates there are battery heaters and battery blankets to help with cold batteries. A fully charged battery won't freeze. Keeping batteries on a maintenance charger during cold weather and periods of inactivity solves many issues. There is a big difference between a trickle charger and a maintenance charger...don't use a trickle charger for long term charging.


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  18. theboss20
    Joined: Dec 30, 2018
    Posts: 208

    theboss20

    If you take the Neg cable off with the Pos still attached and then touch the Neg cable to the Neg battery post...if it sparks...at all...there is a draw....Keep a Battery Tender on the car at all times and try to not allow the battery to discharge.


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  19. Fortunateson
    Joined: Apr 30, 2012
    Posts: 3,111

    Fortunateson
    Member

    What happened to the 94th?
     
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  20. VANDENPLAS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2009
    Posts: 2,368

    VANDENPLAS
    Member

    :rolleyes:

    It’s not always an even number of boobs at every event!

    Lady night I touched 3!

    FB25554F-0969-48FB-B3B4-904FAFFC2556.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
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  21. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 4,009

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Boss, it’s not the knowledge I lack..... it’s the inesitive to fix the problem! Hell I can’t even spell enesitive! Do you feel my pain?







    Bones
     
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  22. Warpspeed
    Joined: Nov 4, 2008
    Posts: 528

    Warpspeed
    Member

    Constant power drain "can" be from many things that are never turned off, such as the clock, alarm system, remote control radio receiver, and so on. These draw negligible power, but its certainly not zero power. There may be something faulty such as courtesy or boot light that never turns off because of a failed or incorrectly adjusted switch.

    Anyhow, even if you totally disconnect everything right at the battery terminals, its still possible for a battery to self discharge and go flat in an annoyingly short time.
    The usual cause is electrical leakage, or a partial short across just one or more cells.

    The usual cause is sludge or crap in the bottom of the cell that can build up until it touches the plates and creates an electrical leakage path. Another thing that can happen is a small flake of active material from one of the plates can break fee and lodge between the plates.

    There is a rather drastic cure for that. Remove the battery from the car and drop it a couple of inches onto the concrete floor a few times !!! If the battery is stuffed because of a tiny piece of crap lodged between the plates, it may just fix the problem. It probably is not going to do any more damage anyway, so its worth a try. It usually dos not fix it, but just very occasionally it does so its a trick worth knowing.

    Some of us have hobby cars that are only very occasionally driven, and keeping the battery in good ready to use condition for weeks, months, or years can present a challenging problem. A constant slow trickle charge is not the best solution, although its better than nothing.

    A much better way is to have a voltage sensing circuit that switches on a battery charger once the standing voltage falls below a certain voltage. Just let the battery sit, and over time the voltage will gradually fall to perhaps 12.4v. The charger is then fired up automatically until the voltage rises to say 14.2 volts, then the charger turns completely off.

    It will then repeatedly cycle between the lower and upper voltage thresholds. You don't need a big charger, something like a 15v 1 amp dc wall pack, in series with a 12v 18 watt turn indicator light bulb works pretty well. The filament just glows red hot, so you can see when its charging. If you accidentally short out the charger the bulb just goes very bright. So its blow up proof, simple, cheap and works well.

    How long it takes to discharge from 14.2v down to 12.4v can be anything from minutes to many days, and that will be a pretty good indication of the overall condition of the battery.
    A battery hooked up to something like this will last for years without doing anything else, and be ready for action at pretty short notice if not immediately.

    The cycling on and off is excellent for exercising the battery, and much better than just holding the battery voltage at something like a constant 13.8v forever with a trickle charger.
     
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  23. theboss20
    Joined: Dec 30, 2018
    Posts: 208

    theboss20

    In addition a Battery Tender keeps a battery from sulfating and that is a key factor.


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  24. theboss20
    Joined: Dec 30, 2018
    Posts: 208

    theboss20

    They now make AGM batteries for ATV, Snowmobile, Jet-skis and much more...they last longer because of the vibration proofing that AGM batteries provide.


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  25. wicarnut
    Joined: Oct 29, 2009
    Posts: 3,623

    wicarnut
    Member

    I am curious to see the equation that determines your 75% difference in voltage/charge 12.8 volt versus 12.65 volt.
     
  26. A 12 volt battery at 12 volts is dead, 12.06v is about 25%, 12.24v is 50%, 12.45v is 75% and 12.65 is 100% charged, its not the percentage of the battery voltage is representing the percentage of charge in the battery.


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  27. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,128

    28dreyer
    Member
    from Minnesota

    [QUOTE="gene-koning, Can't find anything, no drain showing on my volt meter. ... Gene[/QUOTE]

    I hope you weren’t trying to check for drain on the battery with a volt meter.
     
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  28. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 4,056

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    I said "about", it ain't mine, it has to do with the materials used in the plates. A sealed "maintenance free" battery uses different lead alloys, usually calcium. The open circuit voltage or OCV that they settle at is therefore slightly different. This is shown on the manufacturer charging tables, different battery types - AGM, Gel cell, Lead-acid, etc. all have slightly different charging profiles and voltage they want to see. A battery will give longer service if it is charged completely, chronic undercharge is one reason batteries don't last as long as they might, and 80% charge is right where permanent sulfation sets in.

    A battery is "stiff" when they are brand new, they can't quite accept or provide their rated current capacity. Sometimes they sit on the rack for a while too, the idea generally is to buy a fresh one, not something six months old. The last battery I bought took about 6 hours or so to come up to 100% at a slow 6 ampere rate. They take a few starting and discharge cycles to come up, boost charging during this period helps. It's sort of like having a bucket that holds 5 gallons and only filling it with 3.5, it will work OK, but why not utilize its full capacity?

    Disconnecting a battery will not cause trouble in HAMB friendly cars. But it's something to beware of as a general problem in late model cars, the operator's manual will usually explain any specific procedure after replacement. There are quite a few cars where it will cause a trip to the dealer - ABS, power windows, A/C, and collision air bags, or security systems will need a reset with a scan tool. Didn't say I liked it!
    -----------------------------------

    https://www.aa1car.com/library/battery_disconnect_problems.htm

    Problems That May Occur If You Disconnect Your Car battery

    What happens when the battery is disconnected? It depends on the year, make and model of your vehicle, but any of the following may happen:

    • Loss of learned values in the PCM's Keep Alive adaptive memory. This may cause the engine to run poorly because the air/fuel mixture is too rich or too lean for a period of time until the PCM can relearn the fuel trim adjustments. This may take up to several days and 50 to 100 miles of driving until engine operation returns to "normal."
    • Erasing the PCM's adaptive memory may also affect the way the transmission shifts and feels. The transmission may not feel the same until the PCM or transmission control module relearns the shift adjustments. This may take 50 to 75 miles of driving.
    • It resets the FMEM (Failure Mode Effects Management) module on certain late model Ford vehicles. This module provides an adaptive fail-safe strategy that substitutes estimated or fixed data for missing sensor data. Normally, this should not cause a problem UNLESS the vehicle has a bad sensor and has been substituting data from the FMEM module for a missing input.
    • It resets the ABS (Antilock Brake System) and SIR (Supplemental Inflation Restraint) or airbag modules. This should not be a problem UNLESS one of these modules requires a special relearn or reprogramming procedure after power has been lost. In that case, the affected module may prevent the ABS or airbag systems from working.
    • It resets the Climate Control module. On some vehicles, the module will not start working again until a special relearn procedure or reprogram procedure is performed with a factory scan tool. That means no A/C until the module is programmed with the correct instructions.
    • It resets the Body Control Module (BCM). Like the Climate Control module, the BCM may not resume normal operation until it has undergone a special relearn procedure or is reprogrammed with a factory scan tool. This can mess up the operation of power accessories such as power windows, memory seats, power sunroof, or electronic suspension settings. Worse yet, the BCM is the "gate keeper" module on many 2003 and newer vehicles that have a CAN (Controller Area Network) system. If the BCM cannot communicate properly with all of the other modules, or it does not recognize the addresses of other modules, it can cause all kinds of problems.
    • It may reset or disable the anti-theft system. The engine may crank but not start because the anti-theft system thinks somebody is trying to steal the vehicle. Again, it may require a special relearn procedure or reprogramming the anti-theft system with a factory scan tool to resolve the problem.
    • Loss of power window and/or power sunroof position settings. Unless power is maintained to the vehicle's electrical system during battery replacement, the power windows and/or sunroof may not work properly until the position values have been reset using the vehicle manufacturer's relearn procedure.
    • Loss of steering angle sensor settings. The steering angle sensor will have to undergo a relearn procedure following battery disconnect or replacement.
    • Replacing the battery on some vehicles requires entering the new battery info into the PCM with a scan tool (type of battery, battery serial number and CCA rating). This is necessary because the vehicle's charging system is programmed to gradually increase the charging rate as the battery ages. If the charging rate is not reset back to that for a new battery, the battery may overcharge and fail - or vent toxic hydrogen sulfide gas into the passenger compartment if the battery is located inside the vehicle.
    SPECIFIC VEHICLE BATTERY PROBLEMS
    Here is a short list of some of the problems that can occur when disconnecting or replacing the battery on the following vehicle applications (refer to the OEM service literature for specific model and year applications and cautions):

    • Chevy Tahoe Loss of voltage to the vehicle electrical system causes the 4WD module to go to sleep permanently. The module never wakes back up when power is restored, and the only way to restore normal 4WD operation is to replace the module with a new one (a repair that may cost you over a hundred dollars!).
    • Mercedes (various models) Loss of voltage to the vehicle electrical system will prevent the A/C from working. The climate control module must be reset to restore normal operation. It may also disable the Stability Control System. The ABS module has to undergo a relearn procedure for the steering angle sensor to restore normal operation.
    • Toyota (various models) If the battery is disconnected while the key is on, it can set a fault code for the airbag system and turn on the airbag warning light (which deactivates the airbag system until the fault is cleared with a scan tool).
    • Subaru (various models) Disconnecting the battery can trigger the anti-theft system, preventing the vehicle from starting when the battery is reconnected.
    • Saturn L-Series The body control module may forget the odometer display reading. Nice if you are selling a car and want a 0 mileage reading, but expensive to fix because it requires replacing the BCM (at a cost of $300 to $400) and reprogramming the odometer reading.
    • Honda (various models) Disconnecting the battery will set a code and turn on the air bag light (which also disables the airbag system). The dealer must reset the system with a scan tool to restore normal operation.
    • BMW, Audi & VW (various models) Disconnecting the battery requires numerous module relearn procedures which can take up to several hours with a factory scan tool
     
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  29. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 4,009

    Boneyard51
    Member




    That’s what I though. The way I do it, is I use my multimeter on the 1 to 10 amp setting and remove the battery cable and hook it up in series. Take a reading , then start disconnecting things one at a time. When you see a significant reduction in amps, usually that where your problem is. Just the way I do it.
    But remember the newer the car, the more “ allowable” amp draw.




    Bones
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
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  30. Hyvolt
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 269

    Hyvolt
    Member

    Although not practical in the automotive world, the best way that the utility industry uses to test large banks of batteries is to measure internal resistance. I use a diagnostic tool made by megger which applies a ac current through the DC batteries and then the machine measures internal resistance, and also checks all the connections between all cells. I have messed around with it and it does work well on single cell 12 car batteries, but not really practical. Just fyi on how the electric grid maintains it's batteries, because they are actually the backbone to reliable electric distribution/ automation. Major fines can be assessed if batteries are ignored.

    Sent from my LM-V405 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     

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