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Banjo question #256...

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 3blapcam, Dec 1, 2004.

  1. 3blapcam
    Joined: Jul 15, 2004
    Posts: 526

    3blapcam
    Member
    from Austin, TX

    I have noticed that the really early banjo's are not talked about... is that because they break if you put more than the stock 4cyl in front of them? In my research, it seems that 32's are the earliest ones referred to and can find 'after market' parts for.

    I bought one from a 28-29 for my 28-9, did I waste my money here? I'm only planning on putting a flatty in front of it, not a super high horsepower/torque smallblock.

    Thanks for your insight.
     
  2. AV8 Dave
    Joined: Jan 3, 2003
    Posts: 680

    AV8 Dave
    Member

    Hi 3blapcam! I'm using one in my '28 sedan behind a flatty. I totally rebuilt it with 3:54 gears. All depends on your driving habits and style. Doesn't have a support bearing for the front of the pinion which tends to make them weak if you do burnouts a lot. [​IMG] Hope this helps! [​IMG] Regards, Dave.
     
  3. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 17,105

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I got some advice from Jerry Hagens about driving with the early "no support" style pinioned rearends. He said as long as you don't drop hammer, you will be OK. If you need to make a little smoke with the tires, make sure the ring and pinion are loaded with power before you let her loose. But this is probably good advice for ALL rearends.


    - alchemy

     
  4. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Also, setitup on the tight side of preload on pinion and keep R&P lash at minimum. I was just reading an old magazine feature on an 11 second roadster running this R&P--most of the early drag cars you see in the mags with quickchanges are running this gearset, as the V8 quickchange was not common until well into the fifties. It would be interesting to find out the quickest drag car running Model A R&P--I'm sure the ET would be at least in the 9's.
     

  5. 3blapcam
    Joined: Jul 15, 2004
    Posts: 526

    3blapcam
    Member
    from Austin, TX

    AV8 - I like laying rubber with the best of them, but if I know the rearend is going to grenade on the 5th burnout, I'll drive like grandpa...outta the hole.

    Where did you get gears for it? Are they difficult to set up? I took that rearend apart to see what made it tick, but didn't get crazy when I was in there. I've never messed with a torque tube rearend before. I've done a late model mustang rearends, is it much harder than one of those?

    Alec.
     
  6. 3blapcam
    Joined: Jul 15, 2004
    Posts: 526

    3blapcam
    Member
    from Austin, TX

    Are all banjo internals the same? R&P's compatible across the the different year models?

    11's on a banjo?! Or, 11's on just the R&P? Obviously that's not with the stock axles... I'd like to see what they did to make it withstand that kind of punishment.
     
  7. I'm new to this myself... 4-11 is very common, others are available but rare, model A had and unsupported pinion and basically eats itself alive with abuse. V8 axles have a supported pinion and are much stronger and if you've taken one aprt it's easy to recognize the pinion support area... I am swapping my nice 29 axle out for a 36 but have a friend running a B mill with a stock A diff and he is hard on it with no ill effect, lastly the new CK Deluxe has a GREAT tech article on rebuilding a banjo diff... Good luck and keep us posted...
     
  8. AV8 Dave
    Joined: Jan 3, 2003
    Posts: 680

    AV8 Dave
    Member

    3blapcam: Got my gears through my mainland new/old parts guys here in Canada. They weren't cheap - $425 Canadian for just the ring and pinion. Yes, there is definitely more to them than a conventional rearend but there are good articles on how to set them up. Just have to take your time to get them right. [​IMG] Regards, Dave.
     
  9. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    There are three broad groups of banjos: 1928-32 Model A, B, almost all '32's, innards all the same. No pinion rear support, like most rears. Late 1932-34 Ford, supported pinion like a truck. 1935-48 Ford, actually just minor changes from the '32-4, has several parts that vary over the years but all R&P are the same except splinage. I've worked on all, but never compared parts directly. I believe all R&P's and axles are much the same dimensionally, A-B has three gear diferential, later has four.
    These were run in dragsters and lower class drag cars into the early sixties, as complete Ford rears, with QC, or with lightweight stock type centers. Sometime I'll have to try to figure out when top drag cars stopped using early Ford rears with quickchanges.
    Here are numbers from a couple of cars I've been looking at closely lately:
    Losinski '29/'32 flathead highboy roadster, HRM December '52: 136.9 in the quarter. Couldn't find ET--nobobody was much interested in that in those days. The car ran with '46 hubcaps (!), but one picture without them clearly shows the car to have Ford axles! 1932 rear, B type (same as A internally) with Model A QC and '38 trans.
    Tom McMullen's famous flamed roadster ran early Ford gears until about 1964--a high dollar, completely finished street-drags-lakes car. With '39 trans and QC rear (not known whether V8 or A type rear or what axles) and a blown 327, this car ran 11.59 at 127 in the drags and 151 at the lakes--and was street driven. It was later rebuilt with four speed and a really interesting QC (never produced in quantity) that used a mix of '55 Chevy and Halibrand stuff.
    These are by no means upper limit numbers--cars running in much faster classes used these rears too.
    They must have held up pretty well in the pro and semi pro racecars of the day, because most people used them despite the availability of stronger rears like the '37 up Olds and 3/4 tom Ford and the early development of various special and late model axles in 3/4 or full float and non float types.
    Durability measures: Axle ends/hubs must be perfect and tighter than you could possibly imagine--I think spec is around 200 foot pounds! If getting the hubs off isn't a terrifying experience, they were'nt on right.
    Preload on pinion bearings on tight side, tighter on non-supported rears than others, and R&P lash very close. Pinion bearings especially should be the more expensive close tolerance ones or original NOS if findable--pinion climb is certain death.
    Interestingly, I believe early Ford gears became troublesome on the street in the early fifties because of heavy cars and big engines long before they became obsolete on light drag cars.
    I would guess the above mentioned roadsters to be around 1800 pounds for the nearly street roadster like Losinski car and probably a bit over 2100 for the street car.
     
  10. 3blapcam
    Joined: Jul 15, 2004
    Posts: 526

    3blapcam
    Member
    from Austin, TX

    From your post Bruce, it sounds like if the rearend is setup right it won't break. Even if slicks and torque are thrown at it, if not shocked by a 5K RPM drop, it'll perform like a champ. I'd like to street drive it, lay rubber, put slicks on it, and it should hang in there. I also picked up a 40 banjo, would I be better off running that in my model A than the 29 banjo? Or is it all preference at that point? The 40 is lacking the spring, radius rods and brakes so I'll probably run the 28.

    I was looking last night in the Speedway catalog and it offers gears for the 35 and newer rears, so I'm assuming that's a good indication not all gears are the same.

     
  11. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Model A-B gears are readily available, '35-48 gears need modifications to go into '32-4 rears. Gears are expensive, repros may be a bit wonky and NOS is almost gone. Many old Ford rears have survived in good shape, and I would always recommend looking for one with good gears and bearings and just readjust it. Everything is still available, but you could easily drop a thousand into a very needy one and still have repro gears with dubious mesh. Run the A IF it's in good shape, adjust for preload and mesh, replace bearings if things are loose. If it's shot, don't use it. The '40 will still be there if you break something.
     
  12. 3blapcam
    Joined: Jul 15, 2004
    Posts: 526

    3blapcam
    Member
    from Austin, TX

    The model A rear rolls fine. Is there a link to a site for rebuilding that you know off the top of your head? I was just prowling around fordbarn but didn't see anything. I also checked the flatheaders online techno site. I guess what I am looking for is specs on backlash and other pertinent torque specs.

    The 40 rear is pretty stiff and I don't know anything about it right now. I think the Model A rear had 3.7's in it for gears - for what that's worth.

    While we're at it... is there a retro fit kit to make stock model A drums hydraulic? I've seen some that were hydraulic in pics, but I have never heard anyone elaborate on it and I haven't seen anything in any of the model A catalogs.

     
  13. Petejoe
    Joined: Nov 27, 2002
    Posts: 11,012

    Petejoe
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Zoar, Ohio

    Found some good info with contacts and a how to book with it. Make sure you hit next at the bottom of the page>
    Ahoogah
     
  14. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Get hold of a repro set of Model A service bulletins for a full rundown. The very similar process for a V8 rear is covered on the flathead techno site, also get Rumbleseat's online book.
    Take the rear apart only in major chunks first, to inspect and evaluate original gears and bearings. Measure and keep pieces of the original gaskets--really. Play and position of ring gear carrier are set by gasket thickness, and you want the original thickness as a starting point. Model a 3.78 rears are dime a dozen, so start over if R&P are no good...
     
  15. 3blapcam
    Joined: Jul 15, 2004
    Posts: 526

    3blapcam
    Member
    from Austin, TX

    [ QUOTE ]
    Measure and keep pieces of the original gaskets--really. Play and position of ring gear carrier are set by gasket thickness, and you want the original thickness as a starting point.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I've heard you say this before, and was noting that as I disassembled it, but I don't think it had any gaskets?! In general, what's the thickness of those gaskets?
     
  16. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    About .010, I think, with variants for adjustment. One without gaskets should just lock up! Original parts tolerances were held very close so rears could be assembled rapidly--after 75 years who knows??
     

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