Register now to get rid of these ads!

Technical Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by brsturges, Dec 20, 2018.

  1. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    I’ve started breaking down a pair of banjo rear ends I had set aside for my next project, to pick the best parts from both to use. I have a question about some wear I found on one of the axles. The area of concern is where the grease seal rides near the tapered end of the axle.

    The picture below shows the three best axles I have out of the four I removed (the other has badly damaged threads that appear beyond any easy repair). The axle on the right is great, with no issues that I can see. The middle axle has some noticeable pitting on the grease seal surface. There is a closeup picture of that as well. The axle on the left looks ok, but I can feel a slight ridge where the seal rides.

    FDA2AA1F-A4BF-417E-B26F-BB1B4F64B535.jpeg
    6BE7D3D0-79A4-42A5-BC89-DFC616EB76CC.jpeg

    I was hoping to get some opinions as to whether the middle axle and/or the axle on the left would cause me leakage problems down the road. I’ll be using new seals of course, but wanted to hear what you all thought about the wear and whether they will seal up okay. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
     
  2. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 4,118

    Boneyard51
    Member

    BR, I have very little experience in old Ford rear ends, but a lot with seals. That area is not going seal perfectly, at best it will weep and will get worse as the seal wears due to the rough surface. They used to make a bearing/seal for later model Chevy truck axles that moved the bearing and seal to the unworn area. Maybe they make one for this application.




    Bones
     
  3. joee
    Joined: Oct 9, 2009
    Posts: 472

    joee
    Member

    I would find a good axle and not bother with the 2 bad ones
     
  4. Jmountainjr
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 1,207

    Jmountainjr
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I have heard that some guys install 2 seals per side to get the outter seal onto a new contact surface.
     
    Atwater Mike, alchemy and dana barlow like this.

  5. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,247

    oj
    Member

    That seal wear is an effect of something else, in this case probably from being driven extensively with bad hub bearings on that one axle. That must have put a strain on the carrier as well, not just the carrier bearing but the actual carrier because it would've had to act like a universal joint. I wouldn't use either the axle or the carrier, there are too many good ones out there for reasonable money.
     
  6. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    Thanks for all the input and ideas, guys. I may explore the double seal solution, or hunt for another axle.

    @oj, Which seal wear were you referring to? The one on the left, the one on the middle, or both? The middle axle looks to me like the axle sitting too long in one position with some moisture on it. The pitting does not go all the way around the axle...
     
  7. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    Jim, do you know if the seal compartment in the housing has enough of a lip to seat two seals stacked like that?
     
  8. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,759

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Those parallel/flat surfaces don't have anything riding on them except the seal. If you were able to polish them (Could a crank grinder do it?) it might clean them enough, without removing significant strength.
     
  9. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,247

    oj
    Member

    I agree with the water laying up to the seal, the axle on the left looked like it had a groove worn into it, it might be a camera thing showing it worse than what it looks. It was that axle that worried me, whenever I see a single item with that much damage I know it took other things going bad to get it there. The axle must have been at an angle to cut into the seal. at the carrier end the gear contacting the spiders must have been cocked at an angle as well and that will stress the entire spider gear assembly. That would be my concern.
     
  10. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,247

    oj
    Member

    I recently installed a set and there wasn't room enough for a 2nd set, I had a pretty good look down in there getting it clean etc. Of course they made a lot of axle bells and some might be thicker - I think the seal itself is in the housing end that is welded to the axle bell. I didn't measure to determine what is where down in there.
     
  11. I got an off the wall idea. They make a sleeve for Chevrolet harmonic balancers that is to make up for wear in the seal area. Why not sleeve your axle in the seal area. I am sure that it can be done and I do not doubt that it would be an easy fix.

    OK off the wall but it is a thought.
     
  12. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    I like that idea, porknbeaner. But I'm not sure I have enough wear to justify a sleeve. In other words, the sleeve would probably be too thick.

    I am going to polish the middle one up nicely and see how bad the pitting really is. Perhaps a light smearing of JB Weld over the pits followed by another polishing could do the trick?
     
  13. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    I think you are right, OJ. I will take a good look at the carrier from that axle and see if I find anything. The carrier from the good axle on the right looked perfect so I'll use that one on the rear I'm keeping for my next project.
     
  14. That's my thought. They are called a speedy sleeve
     
  15. The sleeves are paper thin. They are used on harmonic balancers a lot for the same wear on the seal surface
     
    Atwater Mike likes this.
  16. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,247

    oj
    Member

    I've been looking into them as well, the sleeves. I have an open drive yoke that has the pitting and can't find another yoke. The sleeves I've looked at come with a new seal as well. Apparently they are sized for both the OD of the sealing surface and the ID of the seal pocket. I haven't had the time to really nail it down, the ones I looked at were SKF? maybe, it takes a bit of research. I was told about them from the Ford Barn.
     
  17. Speedy sleeves are usually meant to work with the factory seals, measure the diameter of the axle and see what’s available, this would be the way to go in my opinion


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
  18. 1946caddy
    Joined: Dec 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,684

    1946caddy
    Member
    from washington

    They make a torch that many machine shops have that looks like a cutting torch and it has a bottle on the top which can contain different metal powders. they heat the shaft up and spray the metal powder onto the damaged area of the shaft and then turn it down to the correct diameter.
    The one we had at work was a lot smaller than the one in the video and cost around $200 not counting the powder which you could get in different metal types.
    https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/f...repair-a-seal-groove-on-a-shaft/125511/page1/
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  19. Jmountainjr
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 1,207

    Jmountainjr
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Speedy sleeves usually work with the original seal and come with an installer. Work great on harmonic balancers , etc. On these axles the supplied installer would be way too shallow to work, but you could make one if you have access to a lathe.
     
  20. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 4,118

    Boneyard51
    Member

    The damage in your close up was caused by the axle sitting for years without moving. It probably had a “rawhide” seal in it. The leather allowed moisture to collect and caused the damage pictured. A common problem with that type of seal, that was common back in the day. One of the reasons the more modern “ neoprene “ type lip seals were developed.
    I’m blessed with a guy that I have known for years at my local IBT and he will work with me at solving problems with seals and bearings. You may be able to find a seal the will put the seal in the “good “ part of your axle. Some of those old rawhide seals were very thick, you may be able to put two thin seals in its place. I know the “experts “ say no, but I’ve done it with success, just fill the area between them with grease. You may find a “step” seal that could solve your problem. Just my experiences.



    Bones
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  21. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    These are all great ideas, and much appreciated. The speedy sleeve sounds like a decent option, but I'm not sure I would be able to install it easily, without access to a lathe. It's probably best on an axle with wear all around, like the one on the left in the picture. I think I've decided I'm going to polish the middle axle as best I can, and fill the pits in with JB Weld, and smooth/polish it once again. With just a seal riding on that area, I think the JB Weld will work like a charm. I'll let you all know how it turns out and take some pictures of the process.
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.
  22. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,759

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    If you are going to try JB Weld, I'd blast the rust pits, install the filler, then sand/polish the axle. No use taking any material off before you add the JB Weld, then doing it again.
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.
  23. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    Yes. That's the way i'll do it. Keep an eye out for the pics!
     
  24. I wonder if there is a seal available that has the same inside and outside diameter but a different depth or offset? Just thinking out loud here


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
  25. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 10,264

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

  26. Jmountainjr
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 1,207

    Jmountainjr
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I think the JB will work, just not sure how long. Do you have a buddy with a lathe? If so the old time fill in with braze and turn down will fix it good as new.
     
  27. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

  28. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    Don’t have a buddy with a lathe unfortunately. A buddy with a lathe is on my list of friends to make this coming year :rolleyes:
     
    saltflats likes this.
  29. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    Quick update for you guys. I bead blasted the corrosion on the middle axle, and the pits don’t look too bad at all. I reposted the before picture so you could get a good before and after. I think some JB Weld or metal filler followed by a polish will do the trick.

    2DBD49B7-5EC8-473E-8EC3-3296A6F6A12C.jpeg
    D6CBECCE-457F-4CD9-BB72-629E559A6C31.jpeg
     
  30. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,366

    bobbytnm
    Member

    Subscribed
    I'm interested to see how it all works out. I haven't dug into my banjo rears yet, but I'm betting I run into the same issue

    Bobby
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2020 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.