Register now to get rid of these ads!

Projects AV8 First Build

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Ben Chirco, Sep 2, 2021.

  1. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 114

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    This is my first build. I have some other antique/classic cars that I have restored, but they have been just changing out parts. Which is much easier than what I am attempting to do now. Please go easy on me as I may ask some questions that most of you feel are elementary.

    I have a 1930 tudor, a flat head out of a 52 Ford. An EAB or 8BA, two Toploader transmissions, a 1948 F1 steering box and column, 1948 F1 crossmember and pedals, and 1940 juice brakes on all four wheels.

    I have done many, many, many, hours of research. I have read many builds and I will have a few questions along the way, so please help me out. Thank you.

    My first hurdle is to determine where the engine will sit on the frame. I want to see if I have a problem with the firewall and what I can do for a fan. I have mounted up an empty three speed Toploader case to the bell housing and I want to bolt it up to the closed driveshaft of the model A that I am keeping. My question is, in the picture below, do I just bolt up these two pieces and assume that that would be where my engine will finally rest? I will not be hooking up the universal joint to the transmission or the closed driveshaft at this time. I attempted to do that with my other Toploader transmission I have, but noticed that the input shaft on the top loader is bigger than the clutch. This clutch issue I have not researched yet. closed driveshaft.jpg Transmission.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
    Nailhead A-V8 and kidcampbell71 like this.
  2. adam401
    Joined: Dec 27, 2007
    Posts: 2,538

    adam401
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Bolt the engine and transmission together. Mount your radiator in the stock location. Mount your waterpumps, pulleys and fan to the front of your engine. Space the fan 1-1/2 back from the radiator. That's where your engine goes. I always build front to back.
     
  3. Dave G in Gansevoort
    Joined: Mar 28, 2019
    Posts: 769

    Dave G in Gansevoort
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    Sounds like a good start. Keep posting and include lots of pictures. We all love pictures. And these guys are super at helping us newbies out. I'm watching...

    I think that is what they say...
     
  4. oldsman41
    Joined: Jun 25, 2010
    Posts: 1,539

    oldsman41
    Member

    First build is a real eye opener,but you will survive
     

  5. walter
    Joined: Nov 4, 2007
    Posts: 626

    walter
    Member

    what center crossmember? split or unsplit wishbone?
     
  6. Get the Vern Tardel books. Vern Tardel Hot Rod Your Model A, and How to Build a Traditional Hot Rod by Mike Bishop and Vern Tardel.
    modela.jpg
    41i+-cuDZiL._BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
     
  7. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 114

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    The engine, bell housing and transmission are bolted together.
    I am using 1948 F1 crossmember and pedals.
    I will see if the wishbones will need to be cut once i place the engine, bell and transmission.
    I have this "How to Build a Traditional Hot Rod"
    Cannot find this "Hot Rod Your Model A"
    I want to start at the transmission/driveshaft and go forward so i dont need to modify the driveshaft later. I thought this was the way to go.
    Thats why i asked the question, if i bolt these two parts together, will it give m a true location of where the eng/bell/trans will sit in the frame?
     
  8. 97
    Joined: May 18, 2005
    Posts: 1,957

    97
    Member

    No there are two more parts involved , a ball that matches the cup on the torquetube and the universal, its only about 3/16 of an inch by time its assembled.

    This pic from Lodadyo's AV8 build here on the HAMB shows the inner ball and UJ, also the narrowed and fitted F1 Xmember and pedals

    [​IMG]
    I may be wrong but I think you will not fit the V8 and three speed in there with the A rear axle in the right place and the torquetube stock length.
    I think the wheels will be too far back or the motor too far
    forward. So the driveshaft and torquetube will need to be shortened!
    Also if the input shaft on your other gearbox is too big for the clutch plate , I think it will be a big truck 4 speed , no use in a hotrod... it's a crash box and the gearing is all wrong.


    another angle
    [​IMG]

    his build here
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/my-av8-roadster-build.1033274/

    He pretty much documents all the questions you have!
     
    kidcampbell71 and kadillackid like this.
  9. Brian Lundgren
    Joined: Jul 16, 2016
    Posts: 29

    Brian Lundgren
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Sounds like you've got some of the key pieces and are off to a good start. Just so you know, I was able to mate a 59A and 39 trans to a stock model A rear-end and did not have to make any alterations, but the fan is very close to the radiator. I think Adam has the right idea, get the engine in there with a radiator and a fan. Then you'll have a better idea of what you need to do next.
     
  10. chucka
    Joined: Oct 29, 2018
    Posts: 46

    chucka

    Where in MA? Might be some local help close by
     
  11. 48fordnut
    Joined: Nov 4, 2005
    Posts: 4,057

    48fordnut
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  12. How did you bolt the 39 to the 59a? I've got an 8ba I'm trying to bolt a 37/39 trans to
     
  13. 48fordnut
    Joined: Nov 4, 2005
    Posts: 4,057

    48fordnut
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Ret you have to use a bell. The 59a has an extended bell 20210820_130922.jpg Bell housing 1.jpg The 1st bell is a 51 mercury bell on the back of a later eng 49 53.
    The second bell is off of a Ford 8ba and bolts to a 37 39 trans like you have.
     
    Nailhead A-V8 and kidcampbell71 like this.
  14. I've got a 49-53 side shift trans with a Borg Warner R10 overdrive, I presume this bellhousing wont work?
     
  15. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 114

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Thanks for all the help. I did install the ball that matches the cup on the torquetube. I did not install the universal joint for my mock up. I will assume that with the 4 nuts tightened at the two cups, it will give me my distance.
    driveshaft at trans.jpg

    I started looking at Lodadyo's AV8 build. Thanks for the info. I had not seen that one.

    With it all bolted up, I could see why the front bone needs to be split.
    split bones see why.jpg

    Now when i move to the front, I see the fuel pump and the glass bowl do hit the firewall.
    fuel pump pass.jpg
    fuel pump.jpg

    The next pictures show my pumps, which are stock for the 1952 car flathead, are 2 3/8" from the MODEL A radiator. I want to say that because I do not have the correct radiator yet. I need to order one. But this is a rough idea for me. You can also see my crank pulley is rubbing on the front crossmember.

    pump pully and flywheel.jpg

    Can someone tell me if the truck water pumps, I think they are called 8RT 1948-52 V8 truck, will give me more space or do they only give me mounting bracket?

    The biggest issue is the crank pulley. It is hitting the crossmember. If I change the water pumps to the 8RT, i will have different size pulleys. I will also need to change the crank pulley. Will the crank pulley give me more room? Is it shorter?

    I know that adam401 told me to start from the front and work my way back, but i am not sure how i would deal with the connection at the driveshaft. Also , I am pretty close to the radiator and i am not sure if the correct radiator is thicker? I will look for one today on line.

    Open to all comments and suggestions.
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  16. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 114

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    I just spent some time studying the mock up.
    What if i moved the front crossmember forward on hole, meaning I move it 1 3/8"+/-. This would move all the steering and suspension also.
    cross forewARD.jpg
    This would give me room for my mechanical fan.

    Now the problem is the 2 pulley flywheel. By moving the front crossmember forward, I would need to notch less of the crossmember for the pulleys to clear. I could fab up an additional piece to go behind the area i cut out to maintain strength.

    FLYWHEEL FWD.jpg

    I do not plan on using a hood.
    Thoughts on this?
     
  17. Brian Lundgren
    Joined: Jul 16, 2016
    Posts: 29

    Brian Lundgren
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You will probably have to make a small relief in the firewall to gain clearance for the fuel pump/breather. Lots of guys do this in different ways, so if you read some build threads here you can gain some ideas. If I am correct, the pump can be taken apart and the inlet/glass bowl can be indexed so it won't hit the firewall. As far as that crank pulley is concerned, you can cut that vertical portion of the crossmember right out to provide clearance. In my opinion, moving the crossmember should be your last resort. Nice work!
     
    fiftiescat and 48fordnut like this.
  18. I would also bolt the whole driveline together and see what needs modified. Cutting the front crossmember to clear the pulley has been done for years. Since your not running a hood would moving the radiator forward work.
     
    48fordnut likes this.
  19. adam401
    Joined: Dec 27, 2007
    Posts: 2,538

    adam401
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Ben feel free to call me. This is alot of stuff to type but I like many have dealt with all these issues. Your closer than you think.
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  20. I’ve got an 8ba in a ‘31 coupe. I did not cut the firewall, I did not move the front crossmember, the rad is in the stock position and the stock hood fits.

    I did delete the mechanical fuel pump and stand, I have an electric fuel pump from 5th Avenue Garage on the frame.

    I run a Powermaster alternator in the stock position. Modified with a four blade fan bolted directly to the alternator, I think I got the adapter from Summit. Blades of the fan have to be trimmed, evenly to maintain balance.

    I have a 39 top loader, F1 crossmember and pedals.

    Stock Model A front axle, dropped 4”. Reverse eye main, 3 or 4 leaves removed from the spring pack. MGA shocks, modified.

    I run 16” ‘37 Ford wide 5 wheels with 750-16s in the back and 600-16s up front. Juice brakes.

    All of the above contributes to the stance, look and drivability of the car.

    The LAST thing to be done, once everything else is in place, wheelbase is correct, stance is nailed, pedals function etc etc etc, is cut the torque tube and driveshaft. DON’T let the driveshaft length dictate where your engine and trans go.
     
  21. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 114

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    This is a lot of stuff. Adam, I will call you tomorrow. Thanks again for reaching out.
    Thanks everyone.
     
  22. Model A Gomez
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,491

    Model A Gomez
    Member

    Definitely headed in the right direction, I had to make a small set back in my firewall to clear everything. I also used a 12 volt generator with the pulley off a 37 Ford to mount the fan. Using truck pumps allows you to use a single belt and shortens the front of the engine a couple of inches. !cid__Photo03061434.jpg plugs.jpg
     
    48fordnut, hfh and kidcampbell71 like this.
  23. Aaron D.
    Joined: Oct 27, 2015
    Posts: 1,012

    Aaron D.
    Member

    Hi Ben, I went through all the same stuff you have questions on. I made a series of videos addressing the issues and how I solved them. I hope they are helpful to you. Aaron
     
  24. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 114

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Thanks for the help. I just spent some time on the phone with Adam.

    I will be going with his advice and setting the engine first and cutting the driveshaft

    I will be going to visit him next weekend to get my education.
     
    48fordnut and Budget36 like this.
  25. wheeldog57
    Joined: Dec 6, 2013
    Posts: 2,136

    wheeldog57
    Member

    @adam401, well done sir! Ben, soak up as much as you can from this guy^^^ he's done it a few times.
     
    48fordnut likes this.
  26. Nailhead A-V8
    Joined: Jun 11, 2012
    Posts: 1,101

    Nailhead A-V8
    Member

    Hmm now you're deviating away from the simplicity of keeping the model A rear axle...before you had only to do a juice conversion on the A axle... you may as well look for a '39-'48 juice axle/bones then since you will cutting the tt anyway...I don't think you will be able to run A rear bones with shortened tt ...they aren't strong enough to be split as far as I know
    I'm working on this same issue so as soon as I saw a couple guys say it can be done I decided I'd rather mess with pumps/pulleys/fans vs. cutting tts and splitting bones
     
    48fordnut likes this.
  27. wheeldog57
    Joined: Dec 6, 2013
    Posts: 2,136

    wheeldog57
    Member

    20210905_184602.jpg 20210905_184624.jpg
    29 roadster, cheap radiator, world's smallest fan, and the hood fits. Any questions, give a shout
     
    Nailhead A-V8 and 48fordnut like this.
  28. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 114

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    The car has 1940 juice brakes, from what i was told by the previous owner.
    I will be looking for a wishbone from a 1937-1941.

    Last week i spoke with Wheeldog57 who was helpful with some answers.

    Yesterday I took a drive down to meet Adam401. "A picture is worth a thousand words". It was very helpful to see what he has done and talk with him about what i am doing. We did discuss the mounting of my engine with F1 mounts and how my fan will work mechanically with the two belt system.

    I have been to about 8 car shows this summer, that are pre 68 cars only, and have not seen one flathead in a model A. Although Adam does not have an A, he was very helpful. Thanks.

    So now, the search is on to find a new wishbone.
     
    adam401 likes this.
  29. wheeldog57
    Joined: Dec 6, 2013
    Posts: 2,136

    wheeldog57
    Member

    Hahahaha, so true about car shows with little or no flatheads. Last year a guy was looking at the roadster explaining to his son that my car had a hemi
     
    Nailhead A-V8 and 48fordnut like this.
  30. j ripper
    Joined: Aug 2, 2006
    Posts: 723

    j ripper
    Member
    from napa ca.

    Hi Ben, if you’re not using fenders you can simply move the body back a little bit.
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.