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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,143

    jimdillon
    Member

    That picture has been posted before I believe. I believe it is Joe Boyer's car and I believe it is Macauley, DePalma and Vincent looking on (as well as guys on the catwalk) just prior to the 23 race.

    By the way guys some great posts. I have been so busy but it has been nice to sneak a look at all of the great posts-Jim
     
  2. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,997

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]

    Courtesy: Gary Doyle.
     
  3. Joshua Shaw
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,191

    Joshua Shaw
    Member

    Great thread guys!

    What's left of the 1923 PACKARD INDY car is in one of the back storage rooms on shelves of the PACKARD MUSEUM in Dayton Oh. I do work for them and we have talked about a possible restoration someday but the budget isn't there right now. The guy showing it to me wasn't sure if they had the frame and then I found it in another part of the building standing vertically in between some big parts racks.
    Whats left:
    Frame
    Dash and inner dash structure
    2 brake drums and parts
    Grille
    Body
    steering wheel with kill switch
    Intake and head
    rear end
    and a few other small items..

    I hope it gets restored someday, it's a neat car.

    -----------

    ****on a neat side note- The winning Miller from 1923 (Tommy milton) is all most finished being restored just 45 min. south of the Packard car in Cincinnati. Two great cars that have survived.
     
  4. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 28,440

    The37Kid
    Member

    I have two Green Engineering catalogs from his Dayton, Ohio days. One has a full right side photo of his INDY 500 car and a front view as well, the blower is in an illustration. I once owned the 16 valve DO Green that Joe Iorio ran out of the Waterbury, Ct. area (his son is on the HAMB), that engine is now in Bill Smith's collection at Speedway in Lincoln Nebraska. It was on the back of one of his flyers, always thought that was a neat deal. :)
     
  5. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,313

    ehdubya
    Member

    Here's a few more DePalma Packard shots and a couple of proving ground ones.
     

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  6. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 28,440

    The37Kid
    Member

    I'd like to see a photo of the Fairgrounds, my dentist has a photo of a Fairground parking lot from about 1908, FILLED with some of the best highend cars of ther era. Not one Ford in the photo! Stanley, Welch, Packard,sure, but no Fords. Photo is about 4 feet long and crystal clear. Another reason the get a new camera.
     
  7. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,143

    jimdillon
    Member

    Josh, I have a photo somewhere of what was left of the 23 racers (by Brad Skinner-who located all of the good stuff) and if they have everything you have listed above then the list of parts are growing. If that is the case that is great, but Packard destroyed most of the cars and the parts. Various parts of each car survived to make one altered car that raced a bit out of a Detroit shop. I have talked to a couple of guys in the past that were going to restore or recreate the car and I do not remember that much being there. I would really like to see how much of the original frame and body is left. I agree it is a great piece and hopefully it will once again see the light of day. There are a few cars out there that became whole from little more than a bushel basket of parts. Some are critical of "rebuilding" them but I am not one of that group. It is better to recreate them (or whatever one wants to call it) so all of us can enjoy them once again.

    With the Vincent diaries it is kind of neat to follow the build as it originally took place. They knew the night before the race that they wouldn't make it but they decided to go ahead and race them anyways. Hope you get the chance to put it back into running form-Jim
     
  8. Joshua Shaw
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,191

    Joshua Shaw
    Member

    Thanks Jim. That interesting! I'll snag some pics of all that's left next time I go up and we'll see what ya'll think. The theory of "using a bunch of pieces to make one car that raced later" makes sense because if I remember correctly the Body has been highly modified from the 1923 configuration.

    The one picture above of the Black roadster is the Jesse Vincent Speedster. That car is BEAUTIFUL and one of my favorite in the museum. I've been promised a ride in it someday. :D

    Here it is today restored..

    **READ THE SHOW SIGN!! IT'S PRETTY COOL!!***
    J Shaw
     

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  9. Joshua Shaw
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,191

    Joshua Shaw
    Member

    The museum also has the Grey Wolf.. VERY famous EARLY Race Car.
     

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  10. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,143

    jimdillon
    Member

    Josh that would be great I would love to see some pics if you go back.

    As to the Vincent Speedster that is a great piece and was restored by a good friend of mine. I was at the Kruse auction several years ago (maybe like 8 years ago?) when the bid was somewhere around $80,000+ on the car. I didn't have the money to take it home but wish I did. It finally went to a good home at the Museum.

    The Gray Wolf as photographed was "restored" by my grandfather. I didn't have a hand in the restoration but did drag up the original chassis from the back of the yard and move the parts around here and there. I have mixed feelings on that restoration. I would make a few changes but it is not up to me-Jim
     
  11. Speaking of the Packard Proving Grounds....Can you see it?!?!? Just faintly...

    [​IMG]

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  12. Joshua Shaw
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,191

    Joshua Shaw
    Member

    Jim.. That is really neat family history! Thanks!

    Weaverville.. Where is that?
     
  13. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,313

    ehdubya
    Member

    Joshua it's Shelby Michigan, that's where you need to go for your Vincent speedster ride and pose by the timing tower before burning around the streets of Grosse Point, beats sitting in a museum :)

    http://shelbyhistory.tripod.com/id14.html
     
  14. Yep...it is in Shelby, MI about 20 minutes from my home in Auburn Hills or about 45 minutes north of downtown Detroit. The grounds holds a few car shows each year now and Ford Motor Company has been helping out with funds to help keep it open for some events but the buildings themselves need a lot of work. I wish I had my pix handy from a car show I went to there last year-you really do feel the weight of it's history as you walk around the grounds-especially as you drive through the gates.

    BTW Mr. Shaw I have the utmost of respect for your abilities as an artist, an artisan and as a fabricator-you are supremely talented in my book!

    http://www.motorcitypackards.com/events_view.php?eventID=88

    http://www.motorcitypackards.com/Carsrstarspress.pdf

    http://underthehood.oldcarsweekly.com/2010/02/17/New+Event+Started+At+Packard+Proving+Grounds.aspx
     
  15. twin6
    Joined: Feb 12, 2010
    Posts: 2,197

    twin6
    Member
    from Vermont

    Here are some photos of the Packard racer "Typhoon" which was powered by Packard's then new first series twin six engine, in 1916. I am not sure if the one at speed, courtesy of Jim Dillon, was previously posted here (my apologies for any repeats). Typhoon was only raced one year, and as Jim can attest, Packard soon found their aircraft engines much more "interesting" as the source of power and speed. Jim, you mentioned Brad Skinner and his ability to find the goodies. I have all of Brad's files on Packard twin sixes, which came to me when I took over responsibility for maintaining the twin six roster. I am always amazed at his abilities way before the internet to find the cars and owners. A month or so ago, I finally tracked down a twin six overseas that had eluded all the Packard guys for decades. The owner shared with me his file for the car, and guess what was in there: correspondence between Brad and a former owner dating back nearly 40 years!
     

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  16. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,936

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    This is what Harry Stutz started with before he built the Stutz car. He manufactured rear axles for other makers. This illustration is similar to the Bearcat and racing car rear axles which have a three speed trans built into the front of the axle. It worked well in practice but the extra weight might have contributed the tire problem and unsprung weight that plagued Stuz's in racing. Circa 1910
     

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  17. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,997

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    There is a thread here titled 'Packard V12 in Hotrods?'.

    www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=404013&page=2

    Jim Dillon posted some great information about Packard and spoke at length about the V12 and Twin Six models as well as providing some excellent photos. Well worth the read.
     
  18. Joshua Shaw
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,191

    Joshua Shaw
    Member

    Cool! Thanks guys..

    I'll check it out.

    J Shaw
     
  19. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,936

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    Before we get to far away from the Ford based specials I thought I would post a photo of the Marchese Bros. Rajo Special. It is a very attractive racer driven by Carl from the famous racing family from Wisconsin. They started racing in 1922 and by 1929 they advanced and had bought a Miller who Carl's brother Tom prepared and which Carl took to a 4th at Indy in 1929.
     

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  20. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,143

    jimdillon
    Member

    Brad was a great guy and did go to great lengths to track down all sorts of good stuff and good information. His efforts are really appreciated by me to say the least. Speaking of Twin Six cars, Brad and I had some lively discussions and friendly disagreements on the likelihood of Twin Six racers (as did most of the Packard "experts") and I would have loved to see his expression as well as his appreciation for the Twin Six racer discovered in South America. After talking to my grandfather for years on the car I knew it existed so I really appreciate the car. My grandfather even told me the hood they later put on the car matched the 299 hood and voila here a Twin Six racer with a permanently affixed Packard experimental department tag shows up in South America with an old but well preserved hood that is similar although not identical to the 299. Although most Packard guys may think of it as an anomaly in the strange sense rather than the unique sense, I find it to be a very important part of Packard racing history. I believe Packard wanted to go racing with a Twin Six and had it not been for the war I believe they very well may have.

    I notice in the third picture you have "unknown" as to the car besides the Typhoon. That car was the 12 cylinder Sunbeam owned by Packard, affectionately named Toodles V (Coatelan's pet name for his wife I believe). That is DePalma behind the wheel. Packard later sold the car to the Adams brothers who used it in exhibition races mainly (like against the Blitzen Benz). It met its demise at Kalamazoo when it was involved in a deadly 10 car pile up.-Jim
     
  21. twin6
    Joined: Feb 12, 2010
    Posts: 2,197

    twin6
    Member
    from Vermont

    Thanks for info on the Sunbeam. Here's another Packard racer about which I know nothing. From the setting, I'd say this might be in South America. Can you or anyone else shed some light on this car?
     

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  22. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,936

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    Here's a hot little number.
     

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  23. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,143

    jimdillon
    Member

    I am glad you posted that picture. I have been looking for that picture for some time. I also have another picture of the same car from a different view. That is the the Jesse Lasky Speedster probably in Hollywood. Lasky was one of the co-founders of Paramount and had pretty deep pockets. Jesse Vincent in his diary noted that he sold the 905 in 1921 (I believe-I don't have my notes in front of me) for $10,000. There is a picture posted above of the 905 sitting side by side with the 23 racers so there had to be a 905 at Packard as late as 1923. This is where Robert Neal and I part company (and where Gary Doyle in is book on Depalma agreed with me). Robert felt there was only one 905 that they changed in 1919 for Daytona. For some reason Robert Neal in his work on Packard felt that Packard morphed one car into another. He felt that they took the second 299 body and made it into the 905 two man car. That is totally incorrect-not possible-everything is different-frame dimensions etc. Then he believed they took the 905 two man car and changed it into the one man 1919 record car. That I also believe is incorrect. Packard put a good deal of money and effort into their racing cars and I do not believe they took shortcuts by adapting other cars.

    I do not believe Jesse Vincent was incorrect when he wrote in his diary that they sold the 905 years prior to the famous 1923 picture. I believe they just sold the two man car in 1921 and kept the one man car until at least 1923.

    The picture above is what I believe is the 905 two man car that Packard sold in 1921 for $10,000 and was adapted to run on the street in sunny southern California at the hands of Jesse Lasky. What engine he had in it is anyone's guess although I do not believe they sold it with one of the 905s. It may have had an altered twin six (just a guess). Cool picture-wish the picture could talk-Jim
     
  24. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 790

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    I noticed that, too. The man is definitely not Milton, nor is it a Duesey, but who and what they are I cannot really say. Based on the "CALG..." legend on the side, it may be the "Calgar Special", a car that ran at Ascot and other So. Californian tracks in 1924/5, driven by one Harold Fredriksen and Babe Stapp. The man's not Stapp, either, so maybe Fredriksen??? I have no other info.
     
  25. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 790

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Thanks for the picture, T-Head, I don't think I've seen one of that car before! FYI, I recently discovered the history of Carl Marchese's Indy Miller (see http://www.oldracingcars.info/marques/indy/miller/1923/, '7'), after SOME sleuthing! The Marcheses had a stable of racing cars in the twenties, including a Gallivan and another 8-cylinder Miller about which I'd love to find out more! Any and all Marchese pictures highly welcomed!!! :)
     
  26. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 790

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    The exhaust is too high for the engine to be a '905', in my opinion.
     
  27. Buildy
    Joined: Jan 29, 2008
    Posts: 1,521

    Buildy
    Member

    In 1925 Tommy Milton drove this Beauty,along with his Miller.

    I don`t know the story of why he switched to the Duesy toward the end of the 1925 season.

    [​IMG]
     
  28. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,143

    jimdillon
    Member

    I agree Michael-plus I do not believe they would part with one of the 905 engines-even for a Hollywood mogul. The Twin Sixes actually enter thur the valley but could be put anywhere like they did on the Twin Six racer-Jim
     
  29. twin6
    Joined: Feb 12, 2010
    Posts: 2,197

    twin6
    Member
    from Vermont

    Can anyone shed any light on this car, or who Jack Donovan was? The car appears to be a 1907 Packard model 30. I have been told AAA did not have a contest board until 1908, and did not sanction races or record runs on public roads for the first 4 to 5 years of its existence. So how did the car race in an AAA event in 1907 and on public roads? Is the gent Fred Wagner, and not Jack Donovan? If this car accomplished all that is stated on the signboard, you'd think it would have survived or at least been the subject of articles but no one I am in touch with in the Packard world knows a thing about this. Photo is from Corbis, possibly Bettman archives. (Buildy: photo date is April 17, 1922)
     

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  30. Buildy
    Joined: Jan 29, 2008
    Posts: 1,521

    Buildy
    Member

    I know nothing more than this is not Fred Wagner.

    Apparently the photo was taken around 1921. Car had 275,000 miles on it by then, an astonishing figure for the time,wouldn`t you say?
     

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