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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. Walker1812
    Joined: Feb 6, 2019
    Posts: 2

    Walker1812

    I found this picture in the family archives that is said to be of my great-grandfather (seated). Most likely in North Carolina, near Asheville.

    I was wondering is anyone could help me possibly identify the car? Hope this is the right place to ask.

    Thank you.
     

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  2. Pete Eastwood
    Joined: Jul 27, 2011
    Posts: 763

    Pete Eastwood
    Member
    from california

    Looks like an "Ames" bodied Model T speedster .
     
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  3. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 25,474

    The37Kid
    Member

    DSCF9850.JPG Thanks for posting the nice original photo, and Welcome to the HAMB. I agree with Pete it is an AMES, made in Owensboro, Kentucky.

    Bob
     
  4. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,709

    jimdillon
    Member

    You guys are pretty good. I have seen pictures of that body with the vents but never made a note (mental or otherwise) of it.
     
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  5. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 25,474

    The37Kid
    Member

    Maybe they made a lot of other things, or a lot of AMES bodies were scrapped over the years, or the factory wasn't that large to begin with.:rolleyes:


    Bob
    DSCF9852.JPG
     
  6. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,649

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    It looks like it was the 1920s equivalent of today's Pro Street hot rod. Not really intended for competition (note the disc-like wheel covers on the spoked Ford wheels and the non functional? vents by the driver's feet) but rather to give "the look" of a competition car.
     
  7. Walker1812
    Joined: Feb 6, 2019
    Posts: 2

    Walker1812

    Wow, thank you all very much for the replies. I had a good feeling that y’all would be the experts. I’m going to dig deeper in the archives and see if I can find more photos. If I do, I’ll share.

    Thank you again,
    Jesse.
     
  8. blueprint2002
    Joined: Dec 25, 2018
    Posts: 231

    blueprint2002

    In 1926 at the Indy 500, there were three cars described as “Schmidt-Argyle”, two entered by Albert Schmidt and one by Albert Guyot. Is there any connection with the six-cylinder sleeve-valve Schmid (ex-Rolland Pilain) which featured in some Grand Prix races of 1924? And do any of them have any connection with the Scottish Argyll (not Argyle) company, which also advocated sleeve-valve engines?
     
  9. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 259

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    Many years ago, Michael and I had a discussion about these cars as a diversion from a thread on Bucciali! Although I'm not sure if we reached a conclusion ...

    https://forums.autosport.com/topic/64890-bucciali-or-buc-racing-cars/#entry1513641 et seq.

    No connection to Argyll though.
     
  10. blueprint2002
    Joined: Dec 25, 2018
    Posts: 231

    blueprint2002

    Thank you Vitesse!
    The coincidences I noticed (Schmidt/Schmid, Albert Guyot with Rolland-Pilain, sleeve-valve/cuff-valve engines) have all been discussed, but it appears will always remain a mystery.
    Granted that Argyle is quite distinct from Argyll, would you be able to say where that part of the S-A name originated?
    Thanks.
     
  11. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 766

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Argyle is probably a latter day invention, maybe by Jack Fox. Those cars were designed and built by Guyot.
     
  12. blueprint2002
    Joined: Dec 25, 2018
    Posts: 231

    blueprint2002

    Thanks Michael. Presumably that was in France?
     
  13. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 766

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Yes, on the outskirts of Paris.
     
  14. blueprint2002
    Joined: Dec 25, 2018
    Posts: 231

    blueprint2002

    A rather hazy, just-about-readable copy of the Indy displacement-weight table of 1942:
    1942 AAA wt sheet.jpg
    Does anyone have the table for the duration of the “Junk Formula”?
    So far as I have been able to find, the 500 race results of that era do not mention the engine displacement of any of the cars, even though there was wide variation, from the 100cuin of the 1930 winner to the 366cuin maximum, which at least some must have taken advantage of. Anyone know where I could find this data?
    Although the qualifying and finishing order, to this day, is affected by so many factors, still it might be interesting to see if any pattern emerges when this (displacement) factor is entered into the results tables.
     
  15. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 236

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    Speciale Guyot.jpg Guyot Speciale.jpg
     
  16. Note the patent date of 1916, can anybody notice what makes it "unique"
    Chadwick-III.jpg

    By the same inventor
    Blower.jpg

    chadwicky.jpg
     
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  17. plym_46
    Joined: Sep 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,730

    plym_46
    Member
    from central NY

  18. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 6,802

    noboD
    Member

    It's not OHV but I do think it's a fuel injection system.
     
  19. Bingo on the fuel injection, not bad for 1916. The other is a 3 stage supercharger, not bad for 1910.
     

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  20. blueprint2002
    Joined: Dec 25, 2018
    Posts: 231

    blueprint2002

  21. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 25,474

    The37Kid
    Member

    Correct me if I'm wrong but Bill Polock had two Chadwicks years ago were they both supercharged?
     
  22. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 766

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    From memory, it was 1,750 lbs minimum, and 7.5 lbs per cubic inch for engines bigger than 233 CID. That was modified a couple years later, into 1,900 lbs minimum I think.

    There are plenty of sources mentioning the engine displacements of cars, though I do not know of any on the net. Again, from memory the winners had the following:

    1930 - a new 2,500 cc/151 ci design developed from the 2,000 cc/122 ci Miller straight 8 speedway engine of 1923
    1931 - an enlarged 2,000 cc/122 ci Miller straight 8
    1932 - a new 3,000 cc/183 ci design based on the 1930 winner
    1933 - a 3,800 cc/230 ci Miller straight 8 from 1931 (built for the "junk formula"), possibly enlarged
    1934 - a 3,600 cc/220 ci design of 1933 developed from the 2,500 cc/151 ci Miller marine four of 1926
    1935 - a new 4,300 cc/262 ci Offenhauser four, developed from the 16-valve Miller of 1931/'32
    1936 - a 4,200 cc/255 ci Miller of the 1931/'32 design (though built later after the Miller bankruptcy by a private team)
    1937 - a 4,400 cc/270 ci Offy based on the 1935 winner
     
  23. No known Chadwick original superchargers are known to exist, or even pictures. About 40 years ago my Dad built a set of wheels for someone building a Chadwick. A couple years ago I renewed contact and found that he has been working to build a supercharger for his Chadwick. He informed me that the "plans" that he was working off of were hand drawn up for him by Chadwick himself in the 40's "as best he (Chadwick) could remember" based on these plans he began making his supercharger from scratch. Having talked with him and pictures of his work I will be working to scale it down and reproduce for the 1912 tourabout I am building.
     
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  24. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 766

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Generally, the displacement limits were only exploited by the "semi stock" racers, which weren't much of a thread anyway. A few Duesenberg (4,300 cc/260 ci) and Studebaker (5,500 cc/336 ci) straight eights finished in the top ten now and then, but mostly because of reliability issues with the real racing cars. Those were initially mostly powered by enlarged 1,500 cc/91 ci and 2,000 cc/122 ci engines from the twenties, though some enterprising souls built a few specials, like the 3,300 cc/200 ci Sampson 16, built from two enlarged Miller engines of 1926, or the 1931 Coleman which had two 3,000 cc/183 ci Miller-Schofield engines (developed from the Miller marine four) to use the maximum of allowable CID. The most successful, however, were special designs by Miller-Hartz (the 1930 and '32 winners) and Miller himself (the '33 winner).

    In 1931, the number of valves per cylinder were increased from two to four, so that the old 3,000 cc/183 ci Millers of 1922 also got a run, and more importantly, Miller developed a 16-valve four of initially 3,300 cc/200 ci, which became the father of the Offy once Miller went bankrupt in 1933. Mention should also be made of the 6-cylinder Sparks of 1937, a supercharged 6,000 cc/366 ci monster that was basically built for one year only, when the fuel limits of the mid thirties were finally lifted. It was rebuilt with a smaller block, and shorn of its supercharger it ran for a few years under the 4,500 cc/274 ci Grand Prix formula of 1938 onwards - it was the epitome of the "junk era", and by far the fastest thing running on the bricks before the war.
     
  25. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,707

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    52765585_477932732739008_4792977043258081280_n.jpg 1925 Chateau Thierry Coast Race. I wonder how many Bugattis with the same serial number were spawned from this wreck?
     
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  26. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,707

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
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  27. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 25,474

    The37Kid
    Member

    At least 3-4 cars could track their "Provenance" to the front axle and wheels alone. :rolleyes: Bob
     
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  28. blueprint2002
    Joined: Dec 25, 2018
    Posts: 231

    blueprint2002

    Many thanks Michael for your masterly summary of that most interesting era.
    Could you please name some of the references you mentioned, presumably books, so that I can try to find them if possible?
    Thank you again
     
  29. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 766

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Though "course de côte" literally translates to "coast race", it actually means "hill climb"!

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_de_côte

    :)
     
  30. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 766

    Michael Ferner
    Member

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