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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 239

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    The photo popped up on ebay, and the seller believed the picture was from 1919. Athur Duray's Frontenac is seen in the image with the unique camouflage paint scheme, and this makes me believe the picture was taken in 1918.

    In regards to the venue I am not sure. Sheepshead Bay and Cincinnati had trees in the infield, and I don't see them here. I'm kinda leaning towards the track in Chicago.

    Pic 4.jpg Pic 3.jpg Pic 11.jpg
     
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  2. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,745

    jimdillon
    Member

    I wondered about both as well. Has to be either 1917 or 1918 as the 299 bodywork was changed for1919. You may be right on Chicago but I was not aware of those buildings. I have some pictures of Sheepshead and the large building has the appearance of a horse stable (kind of) and figured Sheepshead would be the only one with such a building. Thought the fence looked like Sheepshead but now that I see the lower portion I am not so sure.

    It could be the War Derby held in June of 1917 I suppose but the Duray car would be curious. As I said cool pic. I wonder about Duray's Frontenac-I have a picture at Sheepshead in 1919 I believe but nothing earlier. That could be Chicago in July of 1918 if it is Chicago. Mystery I suppose.
     
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  3. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,747

    banjeaux bob
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    from alaska

    31444626_10217014147732231_2790230868260552704_o.jpg An Amilcar driven by Jules Moriceau qualified for the 1929 Indy 500.Started along side Chiron in the Delage 15-S-8 .DNF. Crashed in the 31st lap due to suspension problems.
     
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  4. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,682

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    The most interesting thing about that car is the presence of a drivers headrest. They were popularized years later. That has to be one of the earliest examples.
    Any earlier examples?

    I wonder if the Thompson Products logo is the same Thompson Products that became Thompson Ramo Wooldridge that became TRW?
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2018
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  5. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 25,659

    The37Kid
    Member

    Thanks for mentioning that headrest I never noticed it yesterday. I just looked in the Jack Fox INDY 500 book and it looks like it ran with out it. Wonder if it was too advanced for AAA in the day. I did a google search and a close up photo of the car is on eBay, shows that the headrest was held on with six screws. Bob DSCF8155.JPG
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
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  6. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
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    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    The plot thickens...
    The earliest headrest I've seen was 1934.
     
  7. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 260

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    Not Indy, but both Ernst-Günther Burggaller's rebodied Bugatti and Pierre Felix's Lombard had them by 1932. Both appear to be integral - Burggaller's certainly was.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  8. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,745

    jimdillon
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    The earliest I can think of is De Palma in the Packard 905 at Daytona in 1919. RD 905-33.jpg
     
  9. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,747

    banjeaux bob
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    from alaska

  10. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 239

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

  11. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 768

    Michael Ferner
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    Wow, that's a great picture!

    Moriceau, Chiron, de Palma and Chevrolet - four racing greats from Europe ;)
     
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  12. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,682

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    I think that last photo answers my question. Note the TP logo on the door of the tow vehicle - and the valve and pushrod backing it.

    I dig the "conestoga wagon" tarp on the bed of the truck too.
     
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  13. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 2,624

    Six Ball
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    from Nevada

    There is a lot to see in that photo.
     
  14. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 25,659

    The37Kid
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    s-l1600.jpg Stoll this off an eBay listing. :oops:Bob
     
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  15. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 2,624

    Six Ball
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    from Nevada

    Good shot of rear spring setup.
     
  16. Hey Guys... pictured is the Chrysler "Insignia de Oro" constructed in Argentina by Luis Viglione... The car was raced in the Indy 1932 by Juan Antonio Gaudino... 20180507_204007.jpg

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  17. Luis Viglione was a bohemian man... designed and build racing cars and mainteined some other racing cars likes Bugattis and Delage...
    He builded up a racing car called "Galgo Blanco" (White Greyhound)...That car was a Indy racing too... How the car appears in USA? No one's now! But would be exported by a famous car driver from Argentina... Macoco Alzaga Unzue was the first Argentinian racer in the Indy 500 with the team Bugatti...

    http://www.vanderbiltcupraces.com/blog/article/friday_june_4_2010 imsc2730%20(1).jpg maserati-3.jpg Top-744_edited-2.jpg Image1-154_edited-1_620_478.jpg

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    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  18. 1936 Buenos Aires, Argentina. The Galgo Blanco in a exposition...

    20180507_233057.jpg

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  19. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,747

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    17156208_10155279036199267_5235500364879223335_n.jpg 17157723_10155279036194267_9217940562771009641_o.jpg Spring details for Six Ball.
     
  20. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 239

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

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  21. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 25,659

    The37Kid
    Member

    Yes! I've wondered about the history of this car for years, thanks to ratamahata we know it came from Argentina. Builder must have seen some Type 59 Bugatti photos. Bob

    [​IMG]
     
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  22. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 2,624

    Six Ball
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    from Nevada

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  23. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,095

    28dreyer
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    from Minnesota

    Those drawings dated 1922, #1 floating quarter elliptical rear spring and #12 flat-backed forged U bolt as done on my ex pre-war Hillegass

    Edit..OOPS, I see now the bottom leaf is not floating in the guide like mine and is also acting as a radius rod.
    IMGP5655.JPG IMGP5654.JPG
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
  24. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 2,624

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

  25. MACOCO

    Martin de Álzaga Unzué was the first Argentine racer that had world transcendency. Between 1923 and 1924 there integrated the official Bugatti team in 500 Indianápolis's Miles; it ran in Monza the Grand Prix of Italy with a Miller also officially, won with Sunbeam the Grand Prix of Marseilles... It belongs to an almost extinguished species. Sleepwalkers, sportsmen, bon vivants, were owners of the Paris of the années foliate, years of the adventures: Argentine ranchers, legendary racers, Macoco.

    " Now the whole world speaks of advantage of travelling in plane, and one stoops tired, dirtily, with desire of sleeping! The pleasure that was to travel by ship is incomparable!... One was coming to Europe rested, quite burnt. But ... if today already almost there are not even chocolates! "

    This way there finished the statement of his recollections Macoco Álzaga Unzué. Seventy years lived in a form that already might never be imitated. As healthy survivor of a species extinguished of bon vivants, conquerors of Europa, spendthrifts of strong weight enabled exclusively by fantastic large estates of wheat and cattle spread in hundreds of thousands of hectares with an alone surname boss. Someone, in a meeting, said:
    " Macoco must be the Argentinian that more money spent in his life ". And it is possible that it is true. Because of it it is always interesting to speak with him, because the life of every person becomes interesting in the measure that has lived through more experiences in more time. And Macoco was, fundamentally, an absolute owner of his time for these circumstances, condemnable or not, that since to very small, he touched him usufructuar. Traveler for especially, swimmer, boxer amateur, uncompromising sleepwalker, partenaire of the prettiest women of the world and motorist. This they are some of thousand chapters of this tape with mute prominent figures who up to imagine moving him rapidly, but that now are quiet, filed in two trunks of photos in a basement of the street Rock. Martin de Álzaga Unzué's house.

    " I was for the first time to Europe in 14; he was thirteen years old. Later I returned in 1922 and remained six months; later in 23 I returned to Europe and remained a bit more. I returned to the Argentina and on the following year I embarked again and already remained completely. To the United States I went in 1923, in 25 ... 26 ... 27 .... what be I, was travelling always. Until in 1936 I established myself definitively there. And I remained until 1952. "

    " Between both wars to live in The United States was formidable. It was a golden epoch that lasted from 30, more or less (after the economic depression), up to fifty and so many people. It began immediately after the prohibition of alcohol (this epoch was very teased: there were neighborhoods, in Chicago and New York, where it was not possible to happen; they were killing to shots, the gangsters were not walking with returns). And rightly in this epoch I knew in a cocktail a North American girl, of Spanish origin, very pretty. We go out both a few days later and we went to dance to a cabaret which owner was a famous gangster, follower of Al Capone. I did not know that this girl was wanted of this type.

    He said it to me when we were in the cabaret. I was with another Argentine boy friend of mine. When I listened to it I went away for the kitchen and escaped for a transom. Later, the gangster finds out about the matter, and knowing that I did not have anything that to see " and that was with a Barbarian fright ", sent me to say that we were still so friends as always. Now, it gave a beating that left her of bed... To the poor girl She he was still calling for telephone, but I was saying to him that I did not want to know anything, che. "


    " After the prohibition I bought a house with sink of swimming in Beverly Hills, the neighborhood of Los Angeles where all the artists of cinema were living. It was a Barbarian epoch. All the women were alone, the men had gone away to the war. "

    " (...) It was in Europe and wanted to form an equipment to be going to race to Indianápolis. Fiat was dominating the racing in Europe, but they could not give me the cars for the Indy. I was going to go with Riganti.

    " I put in touch with Ettore Bugatti and bought him the cars, since the Grand Prix of Italy one of his cars it had entered second, to two meters of Bordino's distance. Pierre of Biscay was handling it. The cars were models of two liters, eight cylinders. " (N. of the R.: it was a question 30 designed ones as the tipe specially for Indianápolis on the chassis Strasbourg of 1922. The auto bodies monoposto had been drawn by Béchereau, the same French designer who developed the famous plane Spad, star of the First War. Of these special cars for the North American circuit, it is known positively that two of them were for Zborowski and other one for the prince of Cystria. The three that sold Macoco were not any more than replies than these and, seemingly, it was a question of models Estrasburgo of the previous year modified.)

    We were in the circuit with Riganti hoping that our cars were coming, while we were admiring the marvel that they were the North American cars. Perfect in any sense, impeccable, with engines that were geniuses. Such case of the Miller, for example. When the booths came with our Bugatti and opened them there in the track we look with Riganti and we had desire of " crushing " of the shame that gave us. The cars were finished by hammer, all badly painted, by a looks who was felt sorry for. Ettore Bugatti was the hypocritical one, a bad person. "

    " In the trainings for Indianápolis of 1923 we broke six engines of the Bugatti. We were going in full straight line and suddenly: BOOOOMMMMM!, it was exploiting the engine. I was lucky, because the times that me broke to me, the connecting-rods, the pieces, went out for below. If they go out for above or for the side I am cut by the legs (the engine was staying almost in the middle of the legs). Riganti scared very much and made him put to his car a species of prolongations to the pedalera. He was handling as if it was in squatting, but in case of bursting the engine, had more possibilities of saving the legs... " (N. of the R.: In 1917 the house Duesenberg, for whom Bugatti, together with the colonel King, had designed an aircraft engine of 16 cylinders, modified Bugatti's planes in the part of the lubrication. Nevertheless, for Indianápolis's engines of 1923 and the successive types of Bugatti until 1929, Boss continued supporting his fault in the system of lubrication to pressure: the oil was coming to the benches of the tops for splashed instead of ordering it to pressure.)

    " Only I could give six returns in the race. Later the engine broke. All the time was feeling under me during the trainings, a noise as well as 'blu-blu-blu-blu', ¿ and does it know what was happening? That under the seat had the tank of oil. It was warming up and began to boil. I made him put a plate of asbestos between two sheets of aluminium under the seat, this way, if it was exploiting the tank, at least I was working out unconquered... "

    In 1922, Macoco went to Monza with Harry Miller. It was going to raced the extraordinary North American car in the circuit. In the trainings it went down the time of the record of the circuit. Days before the Grand Prix, it had an accident when it was taking it to his friend Alberto Rodríguez Larreta (the father of Larry) of accompanist. Nevertheless, return with the car repaired to the shot off ones. Before talking, the Duce greeted personally Macoco and asked him to give a ride, before the race talked, in the Miller of the Argentinian. " Looking after myself of not putting the leg, I led it to Mussolini to giving a ride about the circuit. When we return, they talked the race and the Miller did not start... " It Finished the test of 500 Miles in fourth position after changing the pump oil, to five minutes of the winner. Of not having stopped in stalls, surely he had been the Argentinian first in gaining an European Grand Prix.

    " With a Sunbeam of 4,5 liters, Donald Campbell established a speed record on 24 hours. It was an official car of the English house. With the same car I ran in Miramas, in the Grand Prix of Marseilles in 1924 as official pilot of Sunbeam. They had said to me that if it was gaining the race they were giving me the option to buy the car. They said it to me the day before and I agreed. I gained the race, paid for what they asked me for the car and led it to running in San Sebastian. The car was a graft of the chassis 3 liters of Chassagne with brakes in four wheels and the engine 4,5 liters that Campbell used to do the record. Other Sunbeam (with that Lee Guinness killed himself and that also was traversing Seagrave) were different and motive chassis of two liters with compressor. I brought the car later to Buenos Aires. It belonged to Eric Forrest Greene. "

    " The race of San Sebastian was very difficult. The domed way was allowing to get for below into the curves and to take advantage of the banking. But the day of the race rained a bit and a treacherous pimple was formed. The car was reaching 220 kilometres per hour in a straight line, and to the bottom of this one there was a very closed curve.

    " I was bringing the car to the handle, which they would be, with the slippery floor, approximately 180 kilometres per hour, when I came to the curve, I touched the brake and felt it rarely: I looked for the side, to my side, and saw that one part that they have the brakes of cables to the side of the chassis did 'click' and left. I remained without brakes! I put the car since I could in the curve, but it me went away sideward. I could straighten it, but it me went away for another side and throbbed since it was coming against a sign of the way. We fly for the air: my accompanist landed tangled in the wired one and they had to produce it after the stomach and the abdomen. It lost something of intestines. To it me fell the car it raises and the lid of the tank of naphtha that was in the tail did to me this scar that I have behind the ear... "

    " Now I devote myself to send antique cars to many of the friends that I have in The United States. I do not receive anything for doing this favor; it is clear that almost always they send me a gift. " I surprise to see, now that I walk behind of the antique cars, the quantity of cars that were of Gardel. When, actually, the only car that me is clear that it was of Gardel was a closed coupe Chrysler 75. I sold it in 1928; little later, Gardel went away to North America and sold it. I had two agencies Chrysler: one in the avenue of Mayo and other one in Cerrito and Arenales. I had also Pierce-Arrow's representation in the street Florida and other one of Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg in the street Santa Fe. We brought some Duesenberg, but you upset we had them one day in window, were selling them immediately. "


    The myths mix with the stories " sometimes more fantastic " that actually he had to live. They say, for example, that when it was living in Alvear, it had a Miller engine in the bathtub and that occasionally it was starting it. Until that fourth neighbors were occupying put the shout in the sky and it had to end with his experiences of office. Or that one day, in Paris, spent opposite to the agency Amilcar in the Champs Elysées, where they had exposed in the lounge two models Grand Prix impeccably and newly gone out of factory. It began to ask how much they were costing and a thing as well as 100000 Francs said to him, which a Rolls was costing. It looked and said them: " very well, I take the two to myself ... ".

    " I bought two Amilcar. One in 1925 in Paris. It was the same car that had gained Voiturettes's Grand Prix a few weeks before. Other one was a reply with seven flat benches and they ordered it Biarritz, where it was living.

    " With the Amilcar I participated in the race in climbed of Behovia, a vascofrancés town in the Low Pyrenees, closely together of St. Jean de Luz. I did a demonstration: the test was known as ' the career of 17 curves '. It was something like famous Pikes Peak in The United States; I did an exhibition of skill opposite to René Thomas, who was running with a heavy Delage of 12 cylinders, which had to have as 20 liters of cylinder capacity and which him was turning out to be impossible to govern in the way of precipices. Ultimately it could discount me only 1/5 of second. And I had run with a pram of 1100 cm3. "

    " Also I ran in this race with a Hispanic - Swiss.

    " Had it some another Hispanic?

    " I had 30 Hispanic - Swiss. I had the first model Boulogne (constructed in France) of career Dubonnet that I it bought. Also I had a Monza, which I it brought to the Argentina and I it sold to Pereda, who had an accident in the avenue Alvear and lost a foot. It was a short chassis 110/140.

    In 1923 I took a Rolls 60 HP body as Barker. I bought it because it was in England, but I never liked it. It was a "very "dirty" car, with brakes in the back wheels only.

    " I liked the Miller. They had offered me one for 10000 dollars to run in Indianápolis and in Los Angeles. In 500 Miles I had to run with Bugatti, but if it knew that this that it sent me it was the car that sold me, it was not running. In the race of Los Angeles it could gain 3000 dollars with the guarantee that the organizers were giving and with it he was paying the car; but I went to see the track and charm:? Here it does not go!? It was the most dangerous; in a quarter of mile (400 meters) 16 were traversing ó 18 cars to more than 120 miles for hour (almost 200 km / hour) in a closed track of wood. I proved there the Miller and he was feeling below my how the tables were hissing and one was thinking that at any time one was going to raise the parquet... This they were, for me, the most dangerous race of the world. "

    " In 1923 I brought to Buenos Aires a Ballot 3 liters that gave to me the factory. It was very pretty and very light, with a few front elastic tapes very small. It was impossible to ride with this car here, so I ordered it of return and brought a much more adaptable model of two liters to the Argentine ways of then. This car it left also the factory and was the same with that there ran Jules Goux la Targa Florio. It was walking like to 165/170. "

    " Also I handled the Fiat that Pietro Bordino brought to do demonstrations in our country. I it handled before that he because it was not encouraging the Italian to walk in Moron for the undone that was the floor... " For me the best of all was Jimmy Murphy. It was very complete, was handling very well and was an excellent mechanic. Biscay also was very good. And Ascari (father), though it was not very prolix. The day that killed itself in Monthlery I was with Rodríguez Larreta. A return before the accident, I commented to him: ' one is going to stick the cake '. It was not cutting in a very teased bump that existed in a curve. There him the car went away and could not dominate it; it overturned and he was fallen above. "

    "With Lautenslager (the winner of the Grand Prix of France with the extraordinary Mercedes of 1914) I ran in Indianápolis. It was running with Mercedes also and his equipment had some serious accident, because they despaired on having seen how we were spending them with the Bugatti. What happened is that the North Americans " of whom had made I a great friend " indicated me of what form it was necessary to put the front suspension. I am going to explain to him: All the race cars have the wheels put for in into the part of below; dress abreast, the wheels are in 'V'. Of this form they fight better, double fort and one does not need to take them. But on having gone out of the curve, the car can go to any side: for in or for out, one does not have it controlled. Because of it it is necessary to straighten the wheels, even they to be closed a bit of above by (negative curve). This way, to the car it is necessary to take it in the curves with some work, but when it goes out it is totally controlled. I explained it to Fangio and we coincide, when he was going to run in Indianápolis. And for this reason also it shocked there Riganti with the Maserati. "

    " Another very dangerous thing of the racing cars is the steering box. Since it is very direct, suddenly the wheels get for in and it can spend any thing. When one begins to turn, it is possible to move the calm steering wheel him because the direction has still very much crossed. But as the wheels are closed every time it remains less flying, until ultimately... It happened to the poor Eduardo Luro with a Packard that I brought to run in 1924/25. I it sold to his brother Jorge and later it went on to Eduardo's hands. I said to him that it should extract the race steering box to run and one to put anyone, of Hudson or of any other car. It was new, and in full straight line of the Audax in Cordoba him the wheels were united and he died. "

    " Here I ran with this Packard and with two Hudson. I had also an official Stutz agency in Buenos Aires. Luis Ángel Firpo gave it to me in order that it was traversing it. Actually it was annotated as Stutz but it was the whole Duesenberg. "

    " Before it was much more dangerous to traverse that now. The rubbers were much worse, the crosspieces were not lasting, there were no brakes... "

    " Or in last case, it was so dangerous as now; the number of dead men in race every year demonstrates it. "

    " Did you handle some Porsche of the fifties and beak? Can it in what age so difficult turn with one of these cars? Because the direction was not to zipper and the same thing was happening to them that to the ancient racing cars. Because of it there killed himself this boy James Dean, the actor. Now it is different, they have improved the systems and bring zipper. "

    " I had also a SSK. And a Panhard 20 CV Sport, that when it was accelerating " common age the model " one was lighting fire. One had at the time that it continued accelerating to consume the naphtha of the carburetor and the pipings, while with a hand it was closing the faucet of step of naphtha. Of every 20 bursts of speed, one was lighting fire... "

    " I brought also a Mercedes 1908, 120/140 HP. The same one that had compited the Gordon-Bennett cup. Actually to this car Ramos Otero brought it and I it bought in 1917 ó 18 for 1500 weight. It was a marvellous car. I broke it in a crash that I gave to myself in the avenue Alvear and Ocampo one day that was quite bedaubed.

    " To this car I lost the track because the following day I went away to Europe. "

    " Here it was in exhibition in a business of the street Viamonte the famous Blitzen Benz, that one of the enormous tubes of leak and the horn in top. It was some days, and later they took it to him of return to Germany.

    " There were many cars that disappeared. Where there is, for example, the Renault Grand Prix that brought Fortabat, or the Dietrich de Hileret, or the Brassier de Jorge Newbery, or the Mercedes that ran Do I Veer round Pirovano " my cousin " against a Panhard from Belgrano up to Olive trees in one of the first challenges that were done in the Argentina?

    " Where will Chiribiri be 1500 that I brought to Buenos Aires? A very pretty car made by the brothers Maserati who had an equal engine to the Alfa Romeo but little. Or the Ballot two liters? I wanted to adapt these two engines to run in Midgets (in 1937 I brought the midgets to running in the Argentina). The career of the piston was necessary to modify them to take them to 2,4 liters as the Ford 60 HP. I left the Chiribiri and the Ballot in a workshop and went away to Europe. Three years later I returned to look for them and already they were not. As the engine of a Mercedes, which I it sold to a few smugglers in order that they were putting it in a boat and it disappeared. I had a Delage 11 CV of spent and a Bugatti Brescia that ran in the Targa-Florio.

    " Where are so many things? "

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    Last edited: May 10, 2018
  26. Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 11, 2018
  27. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 768

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    The myths mix with the stories...

    Oh, how very true! :lol:
     
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  28. More info about Macoco 20180511_092219.jpg 20180511_092156.jpg 20180511_092132.jpg 20180511_092106.jpg 20180511_091837.jpg 20180511_092024.jpg

    1924. GP de Provence. M. Alzaga Unzue. Sunbeam
    20180511_091852.jpg

    1923. 29-11. Beverly Hills. M. Alzaga Unzue. Miller
    20180511_091846.jpg

    1923.09-09. GP d' Italia. M. Alzaga Unzue. Miller
    20180511_091743.jpg

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    Last edited: May 11, 2018
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