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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
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    from cloud 9

  2. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,857

    jimdillon
    Member

    Not sure if any of you followed the Bothwell auction that took place in mid November. Sold a bunch of cars and I believe the family raked in a total of 13 million plus. The 1914 Peugeot that I believe was the true jewel in his collection sold for $7.26 million-not bad. I am happy that they finally did what they could to straighten out the lineage of the car before it was sold. I remember early on the car was referred to as Rests's chariot. This was the Lutcher Brown car that Mulford drove, that was then bought by De Palma Manufacturing (and then took over by the Book brothers) and then eventually went on to Art Klein and then Bothwell (and maybe Joe Boyer before Klein took actual ownership??)

    I had often wondered about some of Bothwell's other "racers" and see they were sold as cars built up as copies for the most part. Good they got the story straight IMO. Speaking of Cadillac, Bothwell had at least one Cadillac "racer" and maybe 2 of them. I could never figure them out but believe they were built up cars to look cool and have some fun with.

    Bob, in regards to my articles, when I was researching auto racing years ago I would also research the early Cadillacs and the formation of Cadillac, since I had the 03. I do not believe GM has the history correct and have told them so. They will not change what is written I am sure-too ingrained in the written word. I did what I could and wrote a piece for the Horseless Carriage Gazette on the formation of Cadillac and the early cars entitled (Cadillac, The Early Cars and the Men Behind Them-Vol 69 No4 July August 2007). If you have not read it and want to let me know(PM) and I can email you a copy.

    Here is a picture of Peugeot that sold when it was owned by the Book brothers at Indy in 1919 (with Art Klein behind the wheel. Cool uniforms with the script Detroit. The other car they ran in the 500 was the Detroit Special and they were pretty big on the city of their birth. After they gave up racing in 1920 they became heavily involved in developing downtown Detroit (mainly Washington Boulevard).
    Book-11r.png
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
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  3. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,858

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    How did they make such graceful swept back exhaust pipes? I've been watching Pat Ganahl's thread on re-creating the Spalding Special roadster and even his master fabricator Marty Strode wrestled with the exhaust system to get it just right. I continue to marvel at the expertise those craftsmen of that era displayed.
     
  4. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,857

    jimdillon
    Member

    I agree that these guys had some real skills. The more I researched this era the more impressed I became. I have a VHS tape of Myron Stevens who did the metal work on the Millers in the 20s and some in the 30s. Most of the metal work done on the Millers during this era was done by him. I believe he said that the first set of headers he made for the Miller straight 8 in the 20s took him 40 hours and he made them out of a flat sheet (I will have to dig that tape out and see if my memory is half way accurate). If you look at some of the headers he made (in the Indy museum for instance) they are works of art IMO.
     
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  5. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,408

    The37Kid
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    There is a tape of Myron Stevens doing some metalwork using the hammers he hand forged using Model T Ford rear axle shafts, guess he knew were to get good steel.

    The other gem in the Bothwell collection for years was the Ira Vail Hudson from the 1919 Indy 500. D. Cameron Peck bought it off a Philadelphia used car lot in 1948. I've had the paperwork for the car since the early 1920's when Vail sold it to H.D.Carpenter. Car is in Korea now in the Samsung collection. Bob

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Kiwi Tinbender
    Joined: Feb 23, 2006
    Posts: 1,155

    Kiwi Tinbender
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    Jim, I have that same tape. As a metalshaper and fabricator, he is a hero of mine. I have no doubt that I am not qualified to run the broom if I was around in that time...
     
  7. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 7,013

    noboD
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    Hey Bob, did you ever know the Dodge Brothers made those axles? Oh yea, you knew that.
     
  8. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,858

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    I believe the "secret" Ford had was he was using a chrome / vanadium alloy. Tough.
     
  9. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,857

    jimdillon
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    The tape we reference was made in conjunction with the National Auto Racing Historical Society (which I belonged to and no longer exists). He also signed some blueprints of the Stutz Blackhawk which he fabricated a good portion. I got one of those copies and hung it in my shop. It recently fell off the wall and broke the frame.

    I am one of his biggest fans.
     
  10. drtrcrV-8
    Joined: Jan 6, 2013
    Posts: 1,231

    drtrcrV-8
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    That tape was also sponsored by the Machinist's union : at that time I was a member & that's how I got my copy. Small world, isn't it?
     
  11. Years ago when I was young and dumb, an old racer told me: "Son! If you worry about the cost of your race tires, you'll never become a good driver! And you shouldn't bother about entering your car!" In those days a new race Dunlop or Pirelli was about 50 bucks. Now the cheapest tire on my race car is $411 (75 bucks for the tube).
     
  12. Andrew Mccann
    Joined: Aug 2, 2016
    Posts: 236

    Andrew Mccann
    Member
    from Bristol UK

    06B60318-42CF-455E-A7D9-99447CFC86B9.jpeg

    Had this photo for years. Seems sensible to share it now.
    Wondering how much these would cost...

     
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  13. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,408

    The37Kid
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    [​IMG]Does anyone in California know who has the remains of this car? I need to buy myself a birthday present and start another project. You can keep the engine. Bob
     
  14. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 770

    Michael Ferner
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    You probably know this car has a bit of a history... ;)
     
  15. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,408

    The37Kid
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    Yes, that it is why I want to find it and bring it back to its glory days. All I need are the remains of the frame and body, someone tucked away these bits, finding that guy is the challenge. Bob
     
  16. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,114

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    THIS ISN'T MINE... IT'S FOR SALE .... DON'T WRITE TO ME PLEASE. I GUESS MY POINT IS THERE ISD STILL PRETTY NICE AND REAL CARS OUT THERE. I DID TAKE THIS PHOTO SO PERHAPS THE PHOTO IS MINE. Strange that title....

    diller.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
  17. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 10,605

    gnichols
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    from Tampa, FL

    So what are those Ralph Lauren hats or what? Don't think that fad lasted long. Gary
     
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  18. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,114

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    SEVERAL PLACES SOLD THEM

    FUNNY HATS FADE? LASTED FOREVER I STILL HAVE A FEW IN MY COLLECTION ALONG WITH THE PRESSED PAPER PIT HELMETS.... ONE HAS A COUPLE CRACKS WHERE IS SAVED MY SKULL!
     
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  19. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 10,605

    gnichols
    Member
    from Tampa, FL

    ^^^ I do have a pith helmet, much more reasonable looking but still not wide enough for Bville, IMHO. I got mine in the USN while stationed in Panama. I don't know if they are still available thru uniform stores, but perhaps the surplus stores might have some. Or perhaps from some other nation's militaries? Or on the web. I just checked and they are all over the place. Gary

    PS I don't have a FSN, but the inside of mine has the following nomenclature. Stay cool!

    HELMET, SUN
    DSA 100-2102
    8415-161-4773
     
  20. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,408

    The37Kid
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    I offered to wear one of those hats if it would help locate the remains of the car.:);)

    Bob
     
  21. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,008

    Six Ball
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    from Nevada

    Those look like some "wild and crazy guys" :)
     
  22. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,408

    The37Kid
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    [​IMG] That is a lot nicer than I thought it was, first current photo I've ever seen. That old Ansen Special has to be out there some were. Bob
     
  23. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,114

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    LAST TIME I LOOK IT STILL WAS OUT THERE ... THIS WAS RACED BY SEVERAL INTERESTING PEOPLE.

    HAVE YOU SEEN A PHOTO OF A GENUINE MILLER DIFF?
    (NOT YOU BOB)






     

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  24. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Apparently Mark Walker has cast new blocks. Hopefully we'll see the Darracq back on track in the not too distant future. FB_IMG_1513739950039.jpg
     
  25. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
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    from Australia

  26. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,857

    jimdillon
    Member

    Kurtis, pretty cool picture of the Golden Sub taken probably in 1917. Brain is working slowly apparently as I just thought the picture you posted was taken 100 years ago. Here is a picture I took of the recreation by Buck Boudeman that I photographed at the Milwaukee Mile several years ago. The car is flat out cool IMO. 14-Sub-MM2.jpg
     
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  27. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,408

    The37Kid
    Member

    I remember the "Sub" when Buck first had it at Hershey, it caused a lot of talk. All in all my opinion on clones has somewhat changed, I'd rather see and hear them than know there is a pile of parts in a barn some were. :)Bob
     
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  28. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,858

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

  29. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,857

    jimdillon
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    Bob I agree with you and if the truth be known there are more than a handful of race cars that are disguised as original when they are little more than recreations. It is amazing what one can do behind closed doors with a story to match. I would rather see the cars and maybe just a tad of honesty to go along with it (such as Bill Castle and the amazing job he did on the Baby Chevrolet). I appreciate the product of Buck Boudeman although some still smart from the stories he attempted to tell. I did tell Buck when I first saw the car in the mid 80s that the smoke from the exhaust was a bit much and he did tighten up the clearances but he did a beautiful job overall and he is to be commended IMO.

    If the caretakers of many of the race cars were fed a dose of sodium pentathol I am sure the stories may take a turn or two. In the meantime though I do appreciate the cars that are being restored. Better get off the soapbox.
     
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  30. tarcoleo
    Joined: Mar 28, 2013
    Posts: 36

    tarcoleo
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