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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Michael Ferner, Jim Dillon, The37Kid, et all,...

    I have a buddy who is looking for reading material on 'Curly' Wetteroth.
    Books, periodicals and such. Is there anything available? Any help is appreciated.
     
  2. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,839

    jimdillon
    Member

    Kurtis, wish I could help. Michael may be the best source.
     
  3. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 770

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    I think we kicked this around a while ago, and came up with basically: nil.

    :(
     
  4. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,288

    The37Kid
    Member

    upload_2016-2-16_15-50-1.png

    That is the Ira Vail 1919 INDY 500 Hudson factory race car. Vail sold it to H.D.Carpenter in Philadelphia who raced it on local dirt tracks and drove it on the street. It turned up on a used car lot around 1948 and D. Cameron Peck bought it. It was then part of the Lindley Bothwell collection, who in turn sold it to Bill Harrah. Looking back at things I could have found the $23,500 Tom Barrett paid for it, before the total restoration he gave it. Today it's in South Korea in the Samsung collection, I've still got all the Carpenter ownership paperwork. Bob
     
    63fdsnr likes this.
  5. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,839

    jimdillon
    Member

    Bob I am very fond of that picture with the Hudson. How are you so sure that this particular car is Ira Vails? It must be a good story I hope.
     
  6. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,288

    The37Kid
    Member

    Hi Jim, The first time I saw the railroad car with the Hudson was in the Ira Vail feature in Automobile Quarterly. The Hudson factory team had three maybe four cars at one time, so it could be any of them I guess. I do think I'm the only guy with the engine number for the Vail Hudson on Philadelphia P.D. paperwork. Bob
     
  7. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    We both had a strong feeling nothing would be available. Thanks for the prompt reply.

    This is the car James and the students at McPherson College are replicating.

    http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/...-roadster-that-won-the-1935-indianapolis-500/ 17316_920577748000220_8500957447482863940_n.jpg 10731144_920577531333575_1122416807264162824_n.jpg
     
  8. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Is this the Type 29 formerly owned by Chris Homes and then purchased by 'Bunny' Phillips?
     
  9. bugatti7
    Joined: Jan 7, 2013
    Posts: 46

    bugatti7
    Member
    from Germany

    Yes, but it was either a T22 or T23 or T30
     

    Attached Files:

  10. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,288

    The37Kid
    Member

    How long ago did I post that reply? Can you post the original photo. I'm at a loss to confirm what I posted earlier. There never was a Type 29. Bob
     
  11. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Two photos on the previous page Bob.
     
  12. bugatti7
    Joined: Jan 7, 2013
    Posts: 46

    bugatti7
    Member
    from Germany

    it is a Type 22
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  13. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    The register has the following information;

    Engine n°: 20
    Year: 1923 (agent: van Messel, Amsterdam (NL))
    Licence plate: 8V 16 61 (USA)
    Former owners: Martin de Alsaga (Arg), Chris Holmes (USA), O.A. Phillips (USA), Eri Richardson (USA)
    Type 29/30 torpedo
     
  14. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Type 30 monoplace "Bechereau" #4004
    George Duller at Brooklands

    437057.jpg
     
  15. bugatti7
    Joined: Jan 7, 2013
    Posts: 46

    bugatti7
    Member
    from Germany

    #4004 is a Type 22
    4004.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2016
  16. bugatti7
    Joined: Jan 7, 2013
    Posts: 46

    bugatti7
    Member
    from Germany

    The Bugatti-Register has many faults.
    There was no Type 29 to buy.
    There were only 8-cylinder Type 22/Type 23/Type 30 to buy.

    22-23-30.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2016
  17. jonto
    Joined: May 25, 2011
    Posts: 55

    jonto
    Member
    from UK

    I seem remember Hugh Conway mentioning in "Bugantics" that a drawing had been found of a 1500cc version of the 8cyl engine with the type No 29.
     
  18. bugatti7
    Joined: Jan 7, 2013
    Posts: 46

    bugatti7
    Member
    from Germany

  19. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

  20. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Jet96, motoklas and 63fdsnr like this.
  21. Here is a photo I picked up in a junk shop. Don't know anything about it. It says Siewers Junior Special. It is an original photograph. The reverse on the frame has a golden foil seal that reads, "Morcom's: The House of Beautiful Things Oakland" and there is a number written on the stamp, 1134, in pencil.

    [​IMG]

    And this pastel/chalk/pencil drawing- I am pretty sure- is from Charles Demuth. He was a famous American modern artist, who spent much time in Paris:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Demuth

    On the reverse is a French print. He obviously used the reverse of the printed page as it was blank. Don't know anything else about the racecar. The piece is signed in pencil in the lower right corner.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2016
  22. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,801

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    12803006_959519397465603_6692466925411948565_n.jpg Daimler aero testing.
     
    Jet96 and 63fdsnr like this.
  23. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,027

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

  24. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 770

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    The second is a generic Bugatti, but the first one is quite interesting: the Sievers Junior Special was a "homebuilt" straight 8 racing engine in a Miller '122' chassis. It was built in California for the 1926 Indy 500, but couldn't get up to satisfactory speed so it never qualified. It also appeared at several board track meetings, but never actually started a race as far as I can determine. Interestingly, the chassis was sold and reunited with a Miller engine the following year, and enjoyed some success in the hands of Fred Frame and Chet Gardner. The Sievers team, a father and son combo, tried again with a different car in 1928, but failed once more.
     
    The37Kid likes this.
  25. Michael, thank you for the terrific information on the Sievers car, but I want to dig a little deeper on the painting. Any idea who drove a #8 blue Bugatti that Charles Demuth might have seen race in the 1920s? He was living in Paris, and could have perhaps seen a rally race in Spain or Italy (I am guessing here). Those are clearly mountains in the background. It must have been a race with the flagman there in the foreground.

    He was a prolific sketch artist as well as painter, so I am theorizing that he saw a race or was at a race when this piece was rendered.

    Any guesses here on a #8 car?

    Thanks, Pete
     
  26. bugatti7
    Joined: Jan 7, 2013
    Posts: 46

    bugatti7
    Member
    from Germany

    one possibility would Targa Florio 1925, with Costantini 8 and Bugatti 4514

    4514.jpg
     
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  27. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,288

    The37Kid
    Member

    Thanks bugatti7, I knew you would have the answer. Bob
     
  28. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    As Michael says, it's a generic Bugatti - certainly not enough detail to identify which of several models or model variations it might be. T35, T35B, T35T, T37, T37A, T51, T51A ...

    The closeness of the spectators and flagman, the roadside markers and the mountainous background suggest a hillclimb - of which there were dozens in France alone every year. Maybe La Turbie, which was probably the most famous. But - frankly - it could be any one of a hundred or more locations.
     
  29. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,288

    The37Kid
    Member

    Were the dual spare tires unique to different events? The rear wheel placement in the painting is just off as I see it. Bob
     
  30. A little blowup here of the earlier photograph:

    [​IMG]

    And this one of #8:

    [​IMG]
     

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