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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. fnqvmuch
    Joined: Nov 14, 2008
    Posts: 275

    fnqvmuch
    Member

    G'day Bob, thanks mate, but - to me - it looks to be a 4-valve OX-XX ... I found it in the San Diego Air & Space Museum archive with zero details.
     
  2. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,820

    The37Kid
    Member

    ^^^^ Thanks, I've only run across two OX-5's and they were a bit smaller than the engine in the original photo. Bob
     
  3. WPearce
    Joined: Jul 18, 2015
    Posts: 3

    WPearce

    Thanks for the welcome!

    Curtiss and his early engines are a difficult subject. The engine in fnqvmuch’s post would basically be referred to as a Curtiss V (“V” being the engine’s designation, not just its configuration). But it is more complicated than that.

    Things start with the V (5 in bore, 7 in stroke, and 1,100 cu in), then are refined to the VX, then further refined to the V-2. While facts about the V and VX are scarce, the V-2 is known to have two valves per cylinder and looked nothing like fnqvmuch’s image. There is also a V-4 which used 12 V-2 cylinders.

    The final development in the series was the V-3, which used four valves per cylinder. The V-3 looks very, very close to the the engine pictured. Some sources say the V-3 was to be used in the “America” flying boat that was planned to cross the Atlantic before WWI derailed those plans. But some sources call the engines intended for the America as just “V”.

    I think the engine is an early V-3 going through the developmental stages. I do not think it is a true Curtiss V engine because that is the first engine in this evolutionary branch and the V-2 would be a step backward. I think Curtiss literature later group these engines together and called them all “V,” because saying the V engine did not work out sounds much better than saying the V, VX, V-2, V-3, and V-4 engines did not work out. But who knows.

    Below (I hope) are some attachments. One is from Flight showing an engine identical to the one posted above and calling it “V.” The other attachment is from a 1915 Curtiss brochure showing a very similar engine and also calling it “V,” but this same engine is referred to by Angle as a “V-3.” Angle says the V-3 had four valves per cylinder and was intended to replace the VX, but he does not mention how many valves the VX had. If the V-2 is a refined VX, why does it only have two valves. So again, I think V-3, but who knows.

    Bill Pearce
    Curtiss V Brochure 1915.JPG Curtiss V Flight 1915.JPG
     
  4. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,820

    The37Kid
    Member

    Bill, Was the Curtiss V-8 Land Speed Record Motorcycle powered by a one off bike engine or was it an early aero engine? Bob
     
  5. WPearce
    Joined: Jul 18, 2015
    Posts: 3

    WPearce

    Sorry to continue the off topic drift, but....

    The V-8 motorcycle engine was designed for dirigible/aircraft use.

    By 1907, Curtiss had available for sale an inline-four engine for aviation. Curtiss "doubled" the inline-four engine to create a V-8, again for aviation. He used that engine in the motorcycle for his 1907 run at Ormond Beach. Reportedly, three V-8 engines had been built at the time.

    Later in 1907, Alexander Graham Bell, Curtiss, John McCurdy, and Casey Baldwin formed the Aerial Experiment Association (AEA) to build four aircraft, each designed by one of the men. The V-8 engine was offered for purchase in 1908 as the Curtiss B-8. The B-8 engine was used in the original four AEA aircraft, three of which flew in 1908.

    Regards,

    Bill Pearce
     
  6. fnqvmuch
    Joined: Nov 14, 2008
    Posts: 275

    fnqvmuch
    Member

    Thank you very much not only for your answer Bill but also for your wonderful blog/site.
    Steven
     
  7. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,995

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Bill Pearce,no apologies required! It's all connected and it's interesting history as well.
     
  8. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    [​IMG]

    Learn all about Walter Baker and his remarkable electric racing cars in an excellent article by Michael Lamm on The Old Motor.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  9. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
    Member
    from cloud 9

    curtiss383.jpg curtiss382.jpg Top picture shows the Chandler Curtiss at the 1922 Premio Asociacion Audax de Cordoba. The other is the V8 Curtiss of the car, picture taken just after the car was re constructed and exported from Buenos Aires Argentina. The car was active from 1918 till 1924, driven by Ernesto Blanchiardi till 1924 and all 1924 by Juan A. Malcom . Matter of fact I drove the car and was facinated with it's speed.
     
  10. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,995

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Marius Barbaroux,Benz,1903 Paris to Madrid 11796391_1605871656342280_7912862267648315497_n (1).jpg
     
  11. guffey
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 860

    guffey

    brisko hisso 36 (2).jpg 36Brisko (5).jpg
    I was wondering if the photo of the car with the Hisso engine might be earlier than the one with Brisko Miller marine engine? It is not the best photo but it looks like it has Dayton wheels on the front and Rudge on the back in the second shot. I wondered when Brisko developed his crankcase for the Miller marine top end.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  12. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 780

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    That was only for California and Arizona ("Pacific Coast circuit"); Hissos were still alowed to race AAA in the Midwest and East until the end of 1937. The Brisko Big Block Miller Marine appeared at Indy in 1933, and I can find no evidence of Brisko racing a Hisso before the summer of '34.
     
  13. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,995

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    M 11813357_1608523412743771_294978583504182627_n.jpg arcel Renault 1903 Paris to Madrid
     
  14. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,820

    The37Kid
    Member

    ^^^^^^ Thanks Bob, wonder what that car hit the scales at before the lightning holes were drilled? Bob
     
  15. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,313

    ehdubya
    Member

    Can anyone identify this little bug? English_Mystery_Car.jpg
     
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  16. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,313

    ehdubya
    Member

    And speaking of bugs, it bugs me the Louis Ross steamer is so often referred to as the 'wogglebug' NY Tribune Apr28-1905 .jpg The times dispatch., June 08, 1908, Page 5.jpg
     
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  17. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,995

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska


    This car crashed in testing at Brooklands in 1935. More details if they come to light....info from M.T.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
  18. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    Here's the original picture - uncropped - as published in Motor Sport in 1986. It's actually a Geoff Goddard photo.
    Clipboard01.jpg
    It prompted this:

    "Richard Chapman tells us that in the photograph we published last month of the Myles Rothwell racing cyclecar the driver is the late Victor Stafford and could one of the people behind the car be Bert Denly? And wasn't the little car crashed at Brooklands in 1935 not by a journalist, but by a mechanic who took it for an illegitimate run on the track?"

    Motor Sport, November 1986, p86

    "During the season Victor Stafford and Myles Rothwell had
    evolved an odd little 350cc car intended for record-breaking,
    having a closed body in which the driver was originally intended
    to lie down flat, but in the end was accommodated normally,
    and a motorcycle engine in the tail. Unfortunately, a bad practice
    crash into the bridge over the River Wey, near the Fork, when a
    mechanic was driving it, wrecked the car and no more was heard
    of it."

    Brooklands, by Bill Boddy (2001 edition) p227

    The cropped version of the picture was published in Classic & Sports Car in 1990, which offered the additional information that it was JAP-engined. However, its capacity seems open to doubt, given that we have two possibilities! Class I is for 500cc cars, whereas 350cc cars are Class J.
     
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  19. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,313

    ehdubya
    Member

    Thanks very much Bob and Vitesse, its sad to think it never saw any competition and the mechanic was probably seriously injured.
     
  20. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,211

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    If not by the crash, probably by the owner. :rolleyes:
     
  21. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,995

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

  22. jonto
    Joined: May 25, 2011
    Posts: 55

    jonto
    Member
    from UK

    1909 Lorraine Deitrich

    IMG_0755.JPG

    IMG_0757.JPG
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
    Kume likes this.
  23. jonto
    Joined: May 25, 2011
    Posts: 55

    jonto
    Member
    from UK

    The engine of the 1913 GP Sunbeam with its inclined side valves. 1913sunbeammotor-8529.jpg
     
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  24. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 780

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    I think you will find that this is not a 1913 GP Sunbeam, but actually "Toodles IV", the car that ran at Indy in 1913.

    :)
     
  25. jonto
    Joined: May 25, 2011
    Posts: 55

    jonto
    Member
    from UK

    I guess your right Micheal, I was influenced by the inclined valves. My understanding is that Coatalen indroduced these in 1912 on the three ltr four cylinder cars, Coupe de l'Auto and 12/16 production model, perhaps I have it wrong.

    Toodles IV first saw light in 1911, record breaking at Brooklands, it was built from production 25/30hp parts, 6 cylinders, 90 by 165mm., 6.3ltr 30.1RAC hp I believe.

    "August 11th 1911 Coatalen aided by Richards, went for the first long distance records to be broken for some time, usinga 30hp., 6.3ltr six cylinder Sunbeam, with streamlined body and 3/4 elliptic rear suspension. Their pit work was splendidly organised and the drivers changed places every two hours, the tyres being changed at the end of every four hours. By using a 'quick lift' jack consisting of a plank of wood pivoted on a log, very speedy wheel changes were accomplished; one one occasion the tyre change, refuel and adding water, oil and grease, was done in 87 seconds.
    They were successful in capturing world's honours for distances from 400 to 900 miles and for durations from four to twelve hours, averaging very consistant speeds around 75mph". (W Boddy)
     
  26. jonto
    Joined: May 25, 2011
    Posts: 55

    jonto
    Member
    from UK

    I guess your right Micheal, I was influenced by the inclined valves. My understanding is that Coatalen indroduced these in 1912 on the three ltr four cylinder cars, Coupe de l'Auto and 12/16 production model, perhaps I have it wrong.

    Toodles IV first saw light in 1911, record breaking at Brooklands, it was built from production 25/30hp parts, 6 cylinders, 90 by 165mm., 6.3ltr 30.1RAC hp I believe.

    "August 11th 1911 Coatalen aided by Richards, went for the first long distance records to be broken for some time, usinga 30hp., 6.3ltr six cylinder Sunbeam, with streamlined body and 3/4 elliptic rear suspension. Their pit work was splendidly organised and the drivers changed places every two hours, the tyres being changed at the end of every four hours. By using a 'quick lift' jack consisting of a plank of wood pivoted on a log, very speedy wheel changes were accomplished; one one occasion the tyre change, refuel and adding water, oil and grease, was done in 87 seconds.
    They were successful in capturing world's honours for distances from 400 to 900 miles and for durations from four to twelve hours, averaging very consistant speeds around 75mph". (W Boddy)
     
  27. jonto
    Joined: May 25, 2011
    Posts: 55

    jonto
    Member
    from UK

  28. jonto
    Joined: May 25, 2011
    Posts: 55

    jonto
    Member
    from UK

    The car was out again record breaking at Brooklands in August 1912, somewhat altered and now called Toodles IV

    "August 1912 Resta brought out out the six cylinder 90 by 165mm., 30.1hp Sunbeam 'Toodles IV' and took the world's 50 mile record at 92.96mph.
    This was the old twelve hour record car, re streamlined with a narrower radiator and body". (W Boddy).

    This uncaptioned photo may be the event-

    056.jpg
     
  29. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,820

    The37Kid
    Member

    Back in the 1950's there was a INDY SUNBEAM on Long Island, photos of it turn up in club magazines from that era. Were is that car now? Bob
     
  30. jonto
    Joined: May 25, 2011
    Posts: 55

    jonto
    Member
    from UK

    In 1913 the car was modified again to run at Indainapolis-

    "For Indianapolis a shorter wheelbase 10ft 7inch and half eliptic rear springs were used, A two seater body, similar to the Coupe de l'Auto voiturettes, was fitted with with an extented cowl over the radiator. The 33 gallon petrol tank was shaped to merge into the streamline shape of the body. For sustained high speeds engine cooling was carefully considered- to minimise loss of water a coil of copper pipe above the filler cap acted as a condenser. A dry sump lubrication system was used and to cool the oil a couple of 1 1/2 inch pipes ran along outside the body from the engine to the 4 gallon oil tank in the tail. Oil pressure was 25psi. Steel pistons machined from the solid billet, as was the usual Sunbeam practice, were fitted". (A S Heal).
     

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