The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.
That is just amazing! Those sneaky devils! Gary
Bloddy Mary, lovely conception, one of my British favourites.
Correct! The original frame and front running gear is in the Restored 1925 MILLER Front drive in a Salt Lake City collection (with the FWD car).
This car will have a NEW Chassis built to original specs. Believe it or not in the pictures I posted it has a 1"x1" square tube MOCK UP frame in it!!! Mark Dees fabricated an amazing Mock up chassis that rolls, steers and even has a small disc brake on the left rear that is hooked up to the HAND BRAKE!
Brad passed away several years ago. I have what files were in his possession at that time, but very little material relates to the racers. I have heard that he owned parts of 2, and perhaps Jim ended up with some of Brad's records that went with the parts.
Thank you. Yeah, we didn't get any kind of records, papers, or information that I'm sure was gathered over the years.. That's why I was asking.
Josh, in regards to Brad's records they were not a neat binder with page after page of information you could use. I sat down with Brad on two occasions and went through everything he showed me (in binder and manila folder form) that dealt with racing. Most of it was a bit sketchy and so we tried to fill in the blanks but I cannot say with great success. I was doing a considerable amount of research at the time and showed him what I had but some of it he did not buy into wholeheartedly. For instance he felt they only built one 299 and the picture of the two side by side was basically an early version of photoshop. I proved to him otherwise (I think).
I can try and find some of the stuff he gave me but it is of little value if the truth be told. That is not to diminish what he did as I am really appreciative of his efforts. Trying to solve these mysteries is difficult and he found a treasure trove of great stuff.
I will try and dig up what he gave me on the 23 racers, for whatever it is worth. When I told him I read the Vincent diaries and found the cam specs he was very surprised. He did very well tracking down the prior owners but did not find out too much on the history of the cars being built. I sent him some of the Vincent diary copies and maybe Twin Six ended up with that.
I tried to give you what little I have but will see if there is more,good or bad. Hopefully you got what I sent by mail and emailed when we first spoke.
The 23 racers were never a focus of my research and my filing system leaves a bit to be desired (too much junk and not enough time to sort it I guess).-Jim
I don't have any info, other than that this was taken in Montreal QC, Canada. Anyone know what the car is? Louis Disbrow in Jay-Eye See 1912.
It's a Case race car. http://www.racinehistory.com/jicase.html
David, At a quick glance that reminds me of a Welch engine from around 1907. Bob
Pipe (Belgium) also made a rather advanced (for 1910) V-8 aero engine, that was 50 hp @ 1200 rpm, and 70hp @ 1950 rpm.
Looks like the beginnings of the Nailhead Buick.
Nope. Actually, Case had no part in the construction of this "freak" racer. Lou Disbrow bought an old Fiat in late 1911, reputedly the 18-litre car that (in)famously and allegedly ran a 120-mph-lap at Brooklands in 1908, but more likely an identical twin of that car. It had been run in exhibitions on American speedways (Atlanta, Indianapolis, Playa del Rey) by Ralph de Palma and Lewis Strang for a couple of years, and Disbrow tried it out publicly in New Jersey, only for the car to catch fire. Over the winter, he built the new boat-shaped body, and accepted an offer to join the Case factory team, led by manager Alex Sloan, later of IMCA "fame".
Sloan was a showman, and ran the Case team on a barnstorming tour through the US, and when Disbrow joined, his own two cars (the Simplex "Cyclone" and the rebuilt Fiat) were absorbed by the Case stable, and given new names: the Simplex became the "Zip", and the Fiat was renamed "Jay-Eye-See", after a famous race horse of the 19th century, owned by J. I. Case, the founder of the Case company. The only thing Case about the "Jay-Eye-See" was its name!
Thank you Michael! Detailed history like this is great to see in print. Is there any hope that the Zip is still out there trapped in a barn or basement? Bob
The picture posted by 29bowtie can also be found in the June 24th, 1914 edition of The Autocar.
It states that Louis Disbrow, in a car called Jay-Eye-See, named after a racehorse and fitted with a 200 hp F.I.A.T. engine, will attempt and expect to break the existing Land Speed Record at Little Head Beach, Maine and during practice at Long Island, New York, it is alleged that the car covered a straight mile in 20 sec.,ie 180 m.p.h.
Obviously this was another questionable performance courtesy of the I.M.C.A. The same organisation that boasted about the high speeds attained by Sig Haugdahl in the Wisconsin Spl.
The F.I.A.T. DNA is clearly visible in the photo below.
Enjoy this video about the Packard-Merlin engines.
David, Was the 1905 Darracq owned by Barney Oldfield and driven by Ben Kerscher at the 1909 Ormond Races and elsewhere one of the factory entered cars for the Gordon Bennett Cup? Namely Victor Hémery?
1905 FRENCH GORDON BENNETT CUP TRIALS.
Louis Wagner. Darracq. Finished in 4th place.
Photo of a 1904 Darracq. Whether it's the original or cropped, i'm not sure but seated is Arthur Rawlinson at the Portmarnock Beach Races of the same year. The caption that came with the photo states that Rawlinson won the first heat in this car. Another source mentions the car as a 1904 Darracq 40 hp. He later switched to a Gordon Bennett Darracq for the second round of races and afterwards set the fastest time over the Flying Kilometer in the same car.
To me, it sounds like these two cars were used by Case to promote their own racers via hippodroming, which wasn't that unusual at the time.
Jim.. YES!!! A HUGE THANK TO YOU AND YOUR EFFORTS!! They have helped vastly. We got everything and it has REALLY set a lot of rumors and guesses straight.
I also received a bunch of pictures from fellow HAMB member
"George K" of the car when it was last together, 1980's perhaps?.. They too have helped tremendously due to showing us parts that we are missing and now have hope that they still exist (possibly in the vast storage warehouses of the Dayton Ohio PACKARD Museum)... I'll know shortly, as I intend to visit it myself again soon.
Here's is a just a couple of the ones from George K.
Josh the pictures are cool but I would think they are earlier than the 80s. When I spoke to Brad he told me the pile of parts as pictured (that I sent you) was what he said was the extent of what was left.
It would be great if you could locate more for sure.
I just emailed you an 11 page history of the 23 racers that Brad wrote in 1971. The copy I have is pretty yellowed with age but I copied it, scanned it and emailed it to you. Not sure if it was something I sent before. The copy I just sent was something he had sent my grandfather in 1972 and while I was looking for stuff for an article on my grandfather I stumbled on this old copy.
Hope it helps-Jim
Thanks to everyone for the great history posted here...sittin on the couch last night looking at this and the girls says "Ever hear of some old racer named DePalma?"
She told me she had a client by that named "And he claimed one of his relatives was a famous racer or something".
The Brickyard Vintage Racing Invitational June 4-8, 2014
To: Historic Champ/Indycar Owners Dist List (all addresses hidden for security)
From: Carl Schulz - Indio, CA
Subj: SVRA sanctioned oval and roadcourse event at IMS June 4-8, 2014
The Brickyard Vintage Racing Invitational
SVRA wants to hear from Vintage Indycar Owners interested in participating in the oval portion of the SVRA Event June 4-8 at The Speedway.
Just received an email from Roger Linton - Competition/Technical Director of SVRA (SportsCar Vintage Racing Association)
Tony Parella is the Owner/CEO of this organization and requests vintage indycar owners wanting more info/registration to contact him Tony@svra.com
Currently the plan is to run the roadcourse and the oval.
See the two emails below for more general info.
I'll post more info as it becomes available.
"I enjoy these emails.....since my father was involved with a few Indy runs just after the war. I am a big fan of Indy History and I know far to much about the specific cars that ran.
I would like to point out that we have negotiated for 2 half days of Oval time......at speed, but green flag in the straights and yellow in the corners (the best we could do as we are the first--and exclusive-- Vintage event at Indy).The SVRA has already signed up a great list of former Indy Car Owners/ Racers / Mechanics to attend and I think (for the first time ever) the true history of Indy will be on display / not as an after thought / but as the feature event.
Of course we will run the gambit of SVRA sports Cars on the road course as well.
Anyone who has attended an SVRA event this past year will know---- we will go out of our way to give the "circle track" cars as much track time and fun as we can and they will not be disappointed.
Please pass it around....we would like all "circle track" cars interested to contact Tony or myself. I feel like these cars have not been given a fair chance at Indy in the past and the SVRA intends to fix that.
"Pam is already in the loop....but we would like to pull everything we can out of the woodwork, The Speedway is 100% behind us and we have all the garages plus infield camping.
I can't tell you how excited we are.....today I got an email asking if we would let Buddy Lazier drive a vintage Indy car without a vintage license (of course we are happy to have him).....
Send the requests to Tony@svra.com...he is a true Indy enthusiast.
We hope to take cars downtown as well......the SVRA will make Indy "vintage" proud!
Many times I wonder if the rest of the racing classic car people of the world take full knowledge of the importance of this historic oval track. I, for one still am marvelled with the fact it still exists, is used, holds one of the biggest car races in the world, perhaps with the largest attendance, and today is hosting a super event for all Indy Historic cars, I would love to be there, "Chapeau" to the organisers. Let me add I don't live in USA, have never been at the track ,yet. As an enthusiast single seater driver, Indianapolis is no doubt my "Tops".(please look after it)
Saacha, if we get there we will be sure to send photos of the event.
If you decide to leave BA some year and join us bring these guys with you.
I am looking for the following photos:
1911 Indy 500:
-#13 and #14 Falcars(Frank Gelnaw and Billy Pearce)
-#22 Fred Clemens(McFarlan car)
1912 Indy 500:
-#27 Continental car
-#31 Lee Oldfield's Mason-Duesenberg
Separate names with a comma.