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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. ttpete
    Joined: Mar 21, 2013
    Posts: 177

    ttpete
    Member
    from SE MI

    Do you have Robert Neal's book "Packards At Speed"? He has a few details of the Indy car and claims that four engines existed.
     
  2. Joshua Shaw
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,191

    Joshua Shaw
    Member

    We do. That's how we came across the Ollison Brothers connection. ...and He's right. There were 4 engine built: The proto type and 3 stamped and numbered RACE ENGINES. The ONLY engine remaining is the #3 engine we are building now.

    J Shaw
     
  3. Joshua Shaw
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,191

    Joshua Shaw
    Member


    After Packards dismal finish with all 3 cars in 1923, they stayed at the INDINAPOLIS track and tested until June 2nd. All three cars were shipped back to Detroit were #1 and #2 were ordered DESTROYED but the #3 Depalma chassis was saved. It was then acquired as a "Packard Salvage" by Cliff and William Harvey Bailey in the Early 1930's. Photo's show it the same as the 1923 configuration but newer wheels and tires. Then about 1935 the Baileys re-bodied the car for Dirt track racing. Shortly after that it was sold to Earle Ollison, who gave it the #76 and Red/Black paint job.. The photo above is believed to be around 1951. Earle ran Dirt tracks around Detroit with the car, and eventually blew the engine up. This is believed to be the end of the cars racing career.

    -------------

    One book states that the frame was "lost" however I have seen, and laid my HANDS ON the frame. If it is the #3 chassis... I do not know, but's one of the 3 with out a doubt. (This was back in 2005 when I saw it)



    We have a picture of it Mocked up as a roller in what is believed to be 1974.. But, we have been unable to find a lot of the parts in THAT picture.

    J Shaw
     
  4. Joshua Shaw
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,191

    Joshua Shaw
    Member

    I just noticed the little cursor hand on the front tire! Ha ha!


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  5. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,807

    jimdillon
    Member

    Josh I hope you find other pictures. I remember Brad telling me he contacted the Ollison family and that is where I thought he got that picture. I cannot remember if he got any others- Iwilltry and check my notes to see what he told me, although I am out of town chasing car parts.

    Also just in the interest of correctness, the three pics by Twin Six are the 905 single seater LSR in 1919, the second pic is the 299 in 1916 and the third pic is the 905 two man car in1917 at Earle C. Anthony's showroom.-Jim
     
  6. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,000

    The37Kid
    Member

    Is this one of those sad stories were half a car is owned by one party and the other half is owned by another? Sure hope all the bits wind up in the same pile. Bob :)
     
  7. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 6,926

    noboD
    Member

    Kind of like the World's fastest Indian and the original engine.
     
  8. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,000

    The37Kid
    Member

    STOP! We need a few details on that. Didn't I see the original bike and broken engine at Hershey many years ago? :confused: Bob
     
  9. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 6,926

    noboD
    Member

    YES, you did. I thought you knew the story, real bike is in Calif. real number matching engine is in N.Z. The OTHER race engine is with the bike. You mean I knew something you didn't??
     
  10. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,000

    The37Kid
    Member

    Thanks Doug, I owe you a Hershey bar. Bob
     
  11. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,781

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

  12. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,000

    The37Kid
    Member

    Nice David, but I'd rather use the plans in the June 1937 Modern Mechanix and build a Front Wheel Drive midget using Model T Ford parts. Bob
     
  13. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    Addendum: 11/17/13
    Well I have just found another reference to this photo that describes it as Eddie O'Donnell at Indianapolis 1915 -those certainly look like The Speedway garages in the background. However the car appears to be wearing a number 8 on the radiator grille and O'Donnell ran a number 15 at the 1915 Indy 500 and a number 8 at Chicago.


    So the accuracy of the below photo and any resultant conjecture is really in question.

    From:
    http://www.forum-auto.com/sport-auto/histoire-du-sport-auto/sujet378913-35.htm

    Captioned -In Error:
    Eddie O'Donnell Duesenberg 1916 Chicago in error at the referenced website.
    This is actually a photo of Eddie O'Donnell and probably Riding Mechanic P. Henederson in the double drop frame 8 valve Duesenberg at 1915 Int'l 500 Mile Sweepstakes. Car wears the practice/Qual #8, the race number would be #15. Started 11th finished 5th.
    [​IMG]

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/91981316@N06/sets/72157632866436128/

    Reference a series of posts on the 1915 Duesenberg double drop frame, here and at TheOldMotor.com March 2010-
    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
  14. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    I will have to check that out as it sounds interesting does anyone have a link to it online?.....Thanks
     
  15. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,000

    The37Kid
    Member

    The scan will be on its way to you tomorrow. Bob :D
     
  16. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,000

    The37Kid
    Member

    Just wondering if the #4 is Ira Vail in his HUDSON team car? Bob [​IMG]
     
  17. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    Good thought but the other cars are Peugeot's and one was Dario Resta's who won the race. Benedict in the Duesey managed a six or seventh place which was excellent for a privateer in a two or three year old car.
     
  18. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,781

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Barney
     

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  19. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    Addendum: 11/17/13
    Well I have just found another reference to this photo that describes it as Eddie O'Donnell at Indianapolis 1915 -those certainly look like The Speedway garages in the background. However the car appears to be wearing a number 8 on the radiator grille and O'Donnell ran a number 15 at the 1915 Indy 500 and a number 8 at Chicago.




    Thanks for taking the time to respond David.
    If nothing else, a lot seemed to happen between The Indy 300 May 30 and Chicago on June 14th.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/91981316@N06/sets/72157632866436128/


     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  20. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,000

    The37Kid
    Member

    Thank you David! Number 5 sure looks like a nicely built car, great photos too. Bob
     
  21. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 768

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Carl, the picture is definitely from Indy, and 1915. Entries were assigned numbers for practice and qualifying, and then new numbers for the race based on qualifying performance. Not all the cars appeared with those practice numbers, but you can find pictures of the Cornelian, e.g., wearing #10 (practice) and #27 (race), also the Kleinart with #38 (p) and #9 (r) and so on. No mystery involved! :cool:
     
  22. ArchangelKustom
    Joined: Nov 15, 2006
    Posts: 196

    ArchangelKustom
    Member
    from NR/OH

    Hi Josh,
    Small world! I worked at the Packard Museum for a number of years and recall seeing the frame, axle and some loose parts in the storage annex (maybe the head also, but it looked somewhat different from the one in your photos? maybe not, my memory is fuzzy.) At the time there were no resources to do anything with them, and we didn't know anything about its later history.

    The big project at the time was getting the Grey Wolf running, but I wasn't involved in that one, luckily.

    This was around 2000 or so IIRC. Glad to see the Indy car is moving along.

    Now I'm working in Cincinnati not too far from Zakira's. Are you guys still working on the Colani Lamborghini?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
  23. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    Thanks, I'm painfully learning to give a wide berth to photo captions on forums, er.. actually everywhere :eek:
     
  24. memaerobilia
    Joined: Mar 24, 2004
    Posts: 191

    memaerobilia
    Member

    Hi Josh;
    Love your work and projects. Brings back a lot of memories of building/restoring pre-war race cars, with my Dad. He built many of them for a living, when they were current cars, from 1937 on)

    Please pardon my lack of expertise and partial confusion. Some of the various Packard race cars, and the LSR car etc get confusing, when I try to ID all these photos I got from Alec Ulmann years ago.

    Actually (even Better) Alec gave me a box of old 4 x 5 negatives, mostly of old teens and '20's Miller photos of cars, carbs, parts, related cars like Burman etc etc., around 1972-73, I paid a neighbor's high school daughter, who was taking photography classes, to make me a set of good prints from all the negatives. I have seen some of the photos pulshed in Dees' Miller book, but noted that some of those photos were cropped, and not as sharp, compared to wider views in images Alec gave me. These are what I have scanned in to a file, I have not been able to find the old negatives in recent years, after four moves, but know they are here in ONE of the 400 storage crates:eek:

    About that same time, when we were doing some of our dozens of pre-war race car restorations, one of the offerings made to us, was a Packard race engine that DePaolo used, along with some of the axles and running gear. I think It MAY have been in Chicago. Too long ago, now, to remember.
    Having collected many rare aero engines over the years, I also have a pretty good group of Original Packard Co. brochures & manuals, Lit and photos of the aero engines. But I would need some photos or info from you to narrow down the search. My vintage aero (5% vintage racing material) library is 1000 sq ft, floor-to-ceiling book shelves, plus 20 full file cabinets, and 400 storage crates.
    Here are a couple of photos which MAY be of interest or help-....or Not?:confused:
     

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    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
  25. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 768

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    I know what you mean, Carl - the problem is, many internet posters just look up champcarstats.com to find a matching race number, and hey presto, but it ain't that easy. First off, champcarstats (and other websites, too) is full of mistakes, many of them going back to the Phil Harms stats that most have just copied. Phil did a wonderful job with what he had at hand, but time moves on, and with today's research tools, we can fill in a lot of data and correct a lot of his mistakes.

    Secondly, all those internet data bases cover only very little ground, just about a dozen races per year, or two. In reality, most of these cars ran every weekend, sometimes more than once per week. To match a number and a specific car or driver to one single event based on internet data is, therefore, somewhat foolish. And if you don't recognize the gasoline alley garage doors, and match an official IMS photograph to a Chicago race, you don't have no business in writing photo captions anyway... :rolleyes:
     
  26. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,807

    jimdillon
    Member

    Joshua, I said I would get back to you on your earlier post after I had time to look at my notes regarding the Packard 23 racers. Brad's research showed that when the engine came apart a Mercury flathead V-8 was installed and shortly after the car was dismantled. This may very well had been in the early 50s. According to Brad the front part of the frame and part of the axle were sold to make a trailer and the body went God only knows where (even though the body had some obvious changes it still would be nice if part survived). According to Brad the Bailey brothers(Ty George and Cliff)were able to rescue on the hush hush parts of the DePalma Packard, the rest was gone.

    In all the time Brad had the parts up until the time he sold the parts to McConnell he never had a frame. The only bits and pieces of frame he had were allegedly off the 299 and came from a junkyard in New Jersey.

    If a frame has been found it is something that had to have taken place after 1974 surely and if it is the correct frame, I am sure the story of how it was found and documented would be quite interesting to say the least. Stranger things have happened I guess, like Brad stumbling on the 299 early radiator at Hershey, out of maybe four used.

    As to the two pictures above of the 905 taken in 1919, the first one I believe was taken in February and the second during the month of May in front of the pit stall of the 299 just prior to the race. I believe the suit is Jesse Vincent and may be Frank Farber in the coveralls.-Jim
     
  27. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 240

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    Eddie Rickenbacker & Friends
     

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  28. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,781

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Alfa
     

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  29. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,781

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Here are a couple from the Mount Ventoux Hill Climb.The early one is 1903.The best time for 22km climb was about 25 minutes.
     

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    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
  30. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,781

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    A very talented driver
     

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