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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. psalt
    Joined: Apr 17, 2010
    Posts: 101

    psalt
    Member
    from nyc

    Paul,They all drink from the same cup.

    Hi Bob,

    Yes, and it is remarkable how quickly that cup got around before air travel, copiers, internet, etc. No surprise why Enzo crushed some of his best creations to keep them out of the cup. It is also remarkable how quickly some of these small guys could whip up copies that were better than the originals and how big guys took credit for "inventing" ideas.
     
  2. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    Here's a link to some more c.1939 from Sonoma, CA.
    (Brutal stuff-no wonder our mothers wouldn't let us grow up to be racers)
    http://catalog.sonomalibrary.org/ip...rch&ri=1&source=~!horizon&1362580736794#focus

     
  3. Don Capps
    Joined: Feb 13, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Don Capps
    Member

    "My disappointment over the Grand Prize race was greatly compensated for when I was told that I was to be named the A.A.A.'s National Champion for 1911. I must admit that made me feel pretty good." *

    This, of course, raises a rather large red flag of sorts given that the Motor Age selection by C.G. Sinsabaugh for 1911 was Harvey Herrick. Mulford was the Motor Age selection for the 1910 season. Arthur Means would not do his revisions for about another 15 years and Russ Catlin nearly 25-30 years after that.

    In the Mulford article, there is also this statement: "Lozier's next big event, and one that started a controversy that is still being argued over, was the first running of the Indianapolis 500, on May 31, 1911. The argument is over who really won the race. I still think I did, and so did a lot of other people, but I'm told there will be an article in this issue of Automobile Quarterly dealing with that first 500, so I won't go into any detail here." **

    Therefore, it is not entirely a coincidence, of course, that in the same issue of AQ that we also find the Russ Catlin article, "Who Really Won the First Indy 500?" ***

    The Catlin article (which is largely reprised by Russell Jaslow, http://www.na-motorsports.com/Journal/1997/1/RussellJ.html, who, by the way, manages to get the volume number of AQ wrong in his bibliography, and then, more recently by Charles Leerhsen in his book, Blood and Smoke: A True Tale of Mystery, Mayhem and the Birth of the Indy 500 (Simon & Schuster, 2011), the subtitle suggesting that the real mystery is how he had all that research done and still bought into the conspiracy theory...) is interesting in that it is very typical of the Catlin style, just enough of what seems to be factual and knowledgeable to lead one to consider what is actually journalistic twaddle in most cases rather than the fruit of historical research.

    The Horseless Age, "An Analysis of the Five Century Race," 7 June 1911, Volume 27 No. 23, pp. 986-991, does address the timing issue and the changes in the scoring, with time to give due consideration rather than pushed aside in the rush to put the story on the press. The rather lengthy report in Automobile Topics Illustrated, 3 June 1911, Volume XXII No. 9, pp. 427-438d, also provides a rather nuanced view of the race.

    What is interesting is that among the newspapers and journals of the day, there seems to be a clear consensus regarding Harroun (& Patschke) and the Marmon being the winner of the event. The discussion was focused on the order of the finishers down the results list.

    Last Fall, Donald Davidson and I had a chat about Catlin, Jaslow, Leerhsen, et. al, and the "Conspiracy Against Mulford" with the two of us being in total agreement that Harroun was indeed the winner, not Mulford -- or anyone else.

    So, are there those here who still believe that it was Mulford? If so, why? How?

    Or that Ralph Mulford was the A.A.A. national champion for the 1911 & 1918 season? Why? How?

    /////////////////////////////////////////////////

    * Ralph Mulford, "Racing with Lozier: A Memoir," Automobile Quarterly, Volume VII No. 4, Spring 1969, p. 381.
    ** ibid., p. 374.
    *** Russ Catlin, "Who Really Won the First Indy 500?", ibid., pp. 382-385.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
  4. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 780

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Why? That's easy, people generally revel in conspiracy theories, because it gives them the feeling of some sort of "inside knowledge" that the mere mortals are lacking. Just look at all the nonsense in books and on the net about the Kennedy assassination, which will very probably rear its extremely ugly head once again this fall, with the events about to "celebrate" its half century. The truth is often extremely shallow, and boring. Oh yeah, Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy, and Ray Harroun won the first Indy 500 - everybody tells you that, but I know better!!!!

    How? Easy, again. Once a myth is in circulation, it will perpetuate itself over and over again. There's never a shortage of unscrupulous authors and publishers, intent to cash in on the gullibility of millions, be their name Oliver Stone or Charles Leehrsen. It will happen again, and again, and again. And historians will waste more and more time in their futile attempts to redress the balance. It's always been thus... :(
     
  5. Don Capps
    Joined: Feb 13, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Don Capps
    Member

    It is known as Jackets' Corollary:

    It is practically impossible to kill a myth once it has become widespread and reprinted in other books all over the world. -- L.A. Jackets *

    * As quoted by Richard J. Evans, Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust, and the David Irving Trial, New York: Basic Books, 2001, p. 169. Jackets, a former RAF Squadron Leader, was the formerly Chief of the Air Ministry Historical Branch of the Ministry of Defence. This statement, as cited by Evans, is the basis for Jackets’ Corollary.
     
  6. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 243

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    It's interesting that you mention the JFK assassination, and conspiracy theories. Some of the most compelling evidence in that case relates to the paper trail associated with the gun Oswald had on his person when he was arrested. The analysis of that evidence by the FBI was exhaustive, and was probably enough proof to send him to the electric chair. The order forms for the guns, and the P.O. Box application are rarely mentioned by conspiracy theorists in TV documentaries. As an autograph collector I have found the forensic handwriting analysis of Oswald to be a classic case study. Unlike what you see on Pawn Stars, validating a questioned document takes a great deal of time & research.

    In regards to Smiling Ralph Mulford, the evidence that he won the 1st Indy 500 is weak, and circumstantial at best. Ray got the check, and cashed it many moons ago.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
  7. psalt
    Joined: Apr 17, 2010
    Posts: 101

    psalt
    Member
    from nyc

    ]That is the Premier that is in the INDY 500 collection today, car may have started the drilled lightening hole trend.


    Not to mention that little "overhead cam hemi" thing....

    Even with all the holes, it was too heavy to meet the spec and did not race.
     
  8. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,671

    The37Kid
    Member

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  9. I think he just wanted some chowdah, Bob :D
     
  10. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 243

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    Interesting pictures of a great car, thanks for sharing. I couldn't find any newspaper articles on Segrave that mantion Danbury or Connecticut in any of the on-line data bases. Maybe the Fairfield County Library has more info on this. If Segrave was in Danbury it should have made the local papers.
     
  11. abaaba
    Joined: Mar 14, 2013
    Posts: 1

    abaaba
    Member

    Saw the photos of Gelnaw. He is my son in law,s grandfather. Could you let me know the source of the photos, what race etc, any details.
    Also do you have any other photos or information.
    Thanks so much.
    abaaba
     
  12. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    [​IMG]

    The Old Motor Feature Series – New York to Paris Great Race of 1908 – Part 4

    In early 1908 preparations were frantically being made in Europe with teams from Italy, France and Germany building automobiles that would carry them around the world. The effort equaled what we witnessed in our lifetimes preparing for a journey to the moon. Take a trip to The Old Motor and see many more interesting photos and learn the details of the start of the race in the continuing story by Jeff Mahl.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2013
  13. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,975

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Italian road race...
     

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  14. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,975

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Black Alfa 1931 Mille Miglia
     

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  15. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Fritz Wenscher/Rudolf Scholz, BMW 328, c/n [/FONT]85.032.

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Gran Premio di Brescia, April 28th 1940
    [/FONT]
     
  16. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Bob, i'd like to make a couple of points regarding the photo. Firstly, it is too small to see from this side but i'm curious to know if the car to the right is carrying a Connecticut plate. Secondly, you mentioned something about the month of August. In the four books i have, one an autobiography, nothing is mentioned about the exact movements of the Sunbeam whilst in America. Two days after arriving in New York, Segrave, his 'entourage' and by all reports, the crated up Slug, sailed on the 'liner Mowhawk to Jacksonville. From there, Segrave drove to Daytona in a 3L Sunbeam Sports that was brought over on the voyage to the U.S. The question of how the LSR car arrived in Florida is something I can't answer at this time. After setting a new record, one author states that the Sunbeam company were offered $5000 a week to leave the Slug on display in the United States but this was rejected. Whether this is true or not, the fact is that the boxed up car and Segrave sailed from New York on the R.M.S. Berengaria and arrived in Southhampton on the evening of April 12. The only place the 1000 H.P. SUNBEAM could've been in August was on display at Selfridges in London.
     
  17. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    While I'm on the subject of de Hane, I have a question for our resident Bugatti experts. Is there any known history of the Type 13 Brescia driven by Friedrich in the 1920 G.P. des Voiturettes after Henry Segrave bought it from the factory? From what i understand it's first race under his ownership was the 1921 Easter Meeting at Brooklands with Leon Cushman driving. What happened to the car after this?
     
  18. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    ...and still on Segrave..

    Linda, is it true your grandfather was a ride along mechanic {or whatever they call it in boating circles} aboard Miss England. Sig is mentioned in the Cyril Posthumus book.
     
  19. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,975

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Stirling Moss and Merc 300 roadster.
     

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  20. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Bob, don't forget this is a prewar thread.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  21. Please post your pics or discuss anything related to this subject.[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  22. bugatti7
    Joined: Jan 7, 2013
    Posts: 46

    bugatti7
    Member
    from Germany

    Hi Kurtis,
    Henry Seagrave bought ex-Baccoli #12 Le Mans car 1920 chassis no.908
    see Bugatti Trust http://www.bugatti-trust.co.uk/
     
  23. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    [​IMG]

    We are posting many fine photos of the 2013 Amelia Island Concour by Alan Gosley on The Old Motor. They will be a mixture, but we will try to post as many photos of the 20 plus Millers that were on display and all of the posts will be linked together.

    [​IMG]
     
  24. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,975

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Seated on the bench RIGHT to LEFT.... Nuvolari,Varzi,Campari
     

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  25. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,975

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Mr. Dreyfus
     

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  26. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,975

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    I'm unsure of the date or the venue.
     

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  27. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,975

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    prewar
     

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  28. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,975

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Another
     

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  29. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,975

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Bugatti Type 35 1929 Targa Florio
     

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  30. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,975

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Unkown
     

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