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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. The head is probably a Front OHV, guessing from the 3 port exhaust and the narrowness of the hood and proximity of the exhaust pipe to the top curve in the hood.

    The one question would be if the engine was turned around backwards, that should put the exhaust out the right hand side of the car, as most of the OHV conversions at the time all had a cross flow set up with the carb on the right side and exhaust on the left.

     
  2. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,305

    ehdubya
    Member

    Mid 50's, the same polyester resin used with fiberglass but mixed with talc. I looks like a steel body and aluminium hood.
     
  3. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    Thanks for picking up on that (how you like to be a proof reader?)....You are right and I need to correct that as I was thinking backwards at the time. In a normal rwd T a rocker arm Fronty exhausts on the right and a Rajo on the left.

    Another mistake is the car behind it is a Studebaker and not a LaSalle.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2012
  4. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    We forgot all about this one....Have to learn more about it and do a post on The Old Motor about it. I will do some research......Thanks for posting the photos.
     
  5. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    Here's a link to get you started:
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=582490
    And thanks for all the work you do at The Old Motor

    Best Regards
    Carl Schulz
    Indio, CA
    Where we rejoice at every properly labelled vintage hulk that gets onto the track and the rickety old men and women who pilot them.
    Note: Borgeson's 'Golden Age' has a brief mention of this car and I've seen notations that it appeared as The Ray Day Piston Spl in 1932 class B racing.
    Last I heard (2000) Miller Club Tech Guru Harold Peters of Eugene, OR. was planning to recreate the long gone Hamlin Car.
    [​IMG]


     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2012
  6. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

     
  7. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,659

    MrModelT
    Member

    The engine is obviously reversed in some fashion....at least the pan, hogshead and transmision are...you can clearly see the casting shape of the hogshead and the photo. It is hard to see in the photo...but i 'm curious if they didn't alter the block to accept the block a reversed crank....or found a way to reverse the Fronty head. I need to study this more indepth.
     
  8. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    I don't think they had to reverse anything?? They could have put the pinion gear on whatever side of the ring gear that they needed to to get the diff. spinning in the right direction.

    Model A & T diffs can be put in in either direction which have lead to many people crashing though the garage wall in a very embarrassing moment when they put the car in reverse and go FORWARD!!! Putting it in the wrong way reveres the direction in a chosen gear.

    How are things going out West??
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  9. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    [​IMG]


    Don't miss seeing all 1,197 CUBIC INCHES of the engine in Old 16 along with all the details.


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  10. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,659

    MrModelT
    Member

    Most like they didn't reverse the head or block. The intake on a Fronty is of course on the left and the exhaust on the right in a standard configured T. The motor in the racer pictured here has obviously been reversed...as the intake and exhaust are now on the wrong sides. You can also clearly see the hogshead and timing cover are also reversed accordingly. The pan ears (that hold the motor in the frame) have also been altered.

    [​IMG]

    The early style timing cover also indicates this may be an early engine, pre- 1918.

    I completely agree with you that the pinion or Diff innards would need to be flipped in order to avoid an embarrassing issue at the starting line.

    Such a unique car
     
  11. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    I agree with you totally and did not mention the the motor & trans has been basically put in the car backward w/the Fronty on it the way it normally would be.

    It would be interesting to find out how they dealt w/the torque tube, shaft and pinion bearing??

    If wonder if it worked well? Everything I have read about fwd on an oval has not been all that positive except really long tracks. Might be why it it crashed??

    Maybe you should build one next so we can find out how it worked?? Could be a fun project.
     
  12. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,659

    MrModelT
    Member

    I love this car....really hope they don't stop operating it. Read a story a while back that the staff at The Henry Ford found that one of the cylinder casting to be cracked and allowing coolant into the oil pan. In response, the curator said they would be drastically cutting back on running and operating the car to prevent damage....

    Why? ....Fix it!

    There are several very talented individuals, such as yourself T-Head, that could pull that engine apart, fix the crack, pour new bearings, freshen it up at the same time, put it back together in top running order (better then it was in 1908), and have it cosmetically re-assembled so that no one could even tell it was ever apart in the first place.

    Besides....it's a race car, it's not like that thing hasn't ever been apart before anyway...and repaired with parts cannibalized off it's factory built counterparts anyhow.

    I hope that if this is in fact the case with Old Number 16....they get her the help and service she needs and keep her rolling for another 100 years.
     
  13. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    Yes Old 16 is now silent as the conservators at the Henry Ford discovered small cracks starting at the top of some of the cylinders. They could very well have been there for years and are not affecting its operation, but in the interest of not causing any harm to this “Mona Lisa” of American treasures they made the decision to at least for now not run it.

    It was also discovered about 5 years ago during bad economic times(the Henry Ford is a non-profit and not part of Ford) and maybe it will be repaired or new blocks made in the future. I think about that often....and may try to help them in the future. I got my first ride in the car by Peter Helck when I was five years old and it was a life changing experience. My grandmother also used to work for the Sessions who owned it before Peter Helck.....At least for now it is safe and sound.

    Follow the link to The Old Motor (and scroll down) as we now have several pages of info on the car and some other neat photos an much info.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  14. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,659

    MrModelT
    Member

    If were to make an educated guess...I would say they simply cut the stock drive shaft/torque tube down to around 6 to 10" overall length and re-cut the square drive. They most likely used a stock Hyatt pinion bearing.

    Probably did pretty well, but I would say judging by the second "wreck" photo....it probably broke an axle shaft...something T's did have issues with.

    I wish I could....don't have the time as of late...but will go on the "Project List" :D Although...I would amend the design and try to add a second T trans to drive the rear axle as well....for a true AWD variant :D

    It is true that she is a rolling "Mona Lisa" of the auto world....I prefer to see her still "rolling" under her own power....more then that..she NEEDS to.

    The Henry Ford (a place that I have not had the honor of visiting yet) is a interactive learning museum and exhibits like Old Number 16, the 999, the Sweepstakes Racer, etc....NEED to stay running and operational as a testament to history, their creators and for the younger generations and those yet to come. I feel the same way about the NY-Paris Thomas-Flyer.

    You lucky dog! :D I would LOVE to have a ride in Old #16...been a dream since I was a little kid.....wouldn't complain about getting to drive it either :rolleyes: ....open her up a little in top gear and see just what she could do would be a hell of a lot of fun! :D

    If you can offer assistance, I say do it. I have seen your work and it is impressive...and I think you are the only one that could repair Old #16 correctly and do her justice.

    Things out west are cold and wet but otherwise joyful as Christmas approaches. My T has been laid up for winter since October....and it's killing me!
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  15. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 7,289

    noboD
    Member

    Amen, Clayton.
     
  16. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,659

    MrModelT
    Member


    Thank you. I have always loved and respected for cars like this that are "driven" and not setup in a garage or museum behind a velvet rope. These cars ARE "works of art", but they are functional and mechanical "works of art"...and what makes them amazing to look at is watching, hearing and smelling them do what their designers intended them to do...

    ...Run and Drive.

    Seeing Old #16 sitting behind a rope, static.....is no comparison to hearing her crank pulled over and her bark and roar to life.....spitting flame and smoke out of those stubby exhaust stacks with angry abandon as if to say...."I want to run! just let me...once, like the good ol' days!"

    This goes for the rest of them....the NY-Paris Thomas-Flyer, a Duesenberg, a Mercer Type 35J or an simple Tin Lizzy.

    To put it simply...."It's just a machine. If they break, fix it"
     
  17. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 7,289

    noboD
    Member

    Clayton, you missed at least one 1 other, the Premier at the Indy museum. I'd love to see smoke come out of that!!
     
  18. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,659

    MrModelT
    Member

    Thank you noboD!....I can't believe I forgot that one....one of my favorites..

    Wonder how long it's been since the last time that thing ran? ....or what it would take to get her running and operating again?

    [​IMG]


    We also can't forget the Marmon Wasp...

    [​IMG]


    I would gladly offer my services to keep them "exercised" :D
     
  19. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 3,173

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    Tonite some of my hoodlum hot rod buddies helped me set the body sections in place and measure the drag link length sos I can steer it.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    A timeless image Frenchtown.:cool:

    Thanks.
     
  21. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    [​IMG]

    This is the best photo we have ever seen of Camille Jenatzy, better know as the Red Devil and named that after his daring driving style, determination and red hair. He was forever famous as being the winner of the early 1903 Gordon Bennett Cup race driving a Mercedes.

    This photo from The National Library of France, is captioned as showing him at the French Grand Prix. The date that this photo was taken is not known to us, but we would estimate that it is may have been at the 1907 event, were he retired his Mercedes after seven of ten laps.

    Stop by The Old Motor to see the sectional enlargements we have made of the very clear photo and let us know if you can give us more information on this photo.
     
  22. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 779

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    I belive that is actually a later Mercedes, a 1909 "Sprint" type, used mainly for record attempts, hill climbs and... well, sprints! It had a special 17,318 cc (1,056.8 ci) engine in what was basically (or, perhaps actually) a 1908 GP chassis.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
  23. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
    Member
    from cloud 9

    Grossdeutschlandring , would any of you knoledgable people have pictures or information on this rather forgotten pre war track in Germany? It was located near Hohnstein. Must confess it wasn't in my small empty head. Thanks
     
  24. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia


    http://8w.forix.com/deutschlandring.html
     
  25. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Great photo David! It actually reminds me of Ralph De Palma's 1914 Vanderbilt Cup winning 90hp model.

    Mmmm...i need to find more on this interesting bit of info.
     
  26. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

  27. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    [​IMG]


    The Old Motor Feature Series – The New York to Paris Great Race of 1908

    Starting today and monthly we are going to be running the story of the race by Jeff Mahl, George N. Schuster’s Great Grand Son along with some of his very rare photos.
    Schuster was the driver for most of the trip and is seen above behind the wheel after the race in New York. Stop by as you are sure enjoy it.
     
  28. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

     
  29. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
    Member
    from cloud 9

  30. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    [​IMG]

    The Isotta-Fraschini-Fiat Special came to life just recently after a twenty year construction. It's chassis was based on the Fiat drawing from 1905 below. Read all about it and see many more Stefan Marjoram photos showing its construction with a 1014 c.i. or 16.5 litre Isotta-Fraschini aero engine.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012

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