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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,059

    jimdillon
    Member

    Michael, you have done considerably more research on this matter than I, as admittedly I have spent more time on American racing matters. As I understand the AIACR was formed by a group of Frenchmen that decided they would form an "international body" in regards to international records.

    I have no love for the AAA so it is senseless for me to sing their praises as I am sure I would not do very well. I could go on at length with the shortsightedness and stubborn ways, but that would serve no purpose.

    From my somewhat uninformed viewpoint I look at the AIACR as the keeper of European records, of course up until 1928 (without looking at my notes I thought 1925 but I am sure you are correct as to the date of 1928). What members of the international community (other than Europeans) belonged to the AIACR? What international records from countries other than Europe were listed as international records prior to let's say DePalma's 1919 American record (which in reality all it was)?

    No matter how much anyone bellyaches, the American records were simply that-American records, run under an American sanction. Even though I believe DePalma drove both ways, it really, record wise made no difference as it was not properly sanctioned as a two way record. Just as the European community diminished the American records in that they were not truly "international" I am not sure how much I believe the "European" records prior to 1928 were international either. It may be one of those things where we seem to differ.-Jim
     
  2. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 780

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Without going into detail, but I believe there were at least as many US Americans involved in the charter of the AIACR as Frenchmen. That talk about "European records" is just childish, sorry! Just because the Americans (represented by the ACA) lost interest, that doesn't make the AIACR a European institution. Just the other day, I found an interesting article in a US newspaper, "The Dallas Morning News", from November 1911, detailing some of the rules for the Grand Prize. It lists all (?) the clubs that were then members of the AIACR, including the ACs of America, Canada, Cuba, Mexico, New Zealand and Puerto Rico. Last time I checked, none of these countries were part of Europe. I was never much interested in puerile speed records, so I have no idea if any records were ever established outside of Europe before 1919.
     
  3. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 780

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Funny thing, I just reread what I'd posted earlier, and it seems that Wonderlich didn't have Dubonnet's car either! According to the pictures we now have, it's Boyer => Hartz and Guyot => Wonderlich, and with Murphy => Murphy that means that Dubonnet's car actually went to de Palma!! Strange... :confused:
     
  4. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,059

    jimdillon
    Member

    Michael, from what I have read the AIACR was formed shortly after the turn of the century in Paris. If you have some research that shows that other nations other than those in Europe then please lead me so that I can see which member nations were a part of the original charter. The fact that the ACA in 1911 were members of the AIACR, I cannot argue with that as I have not researched that. No matter what characterization we give the AAA they were running the clocks at the speed contests as far as I have read. The AAA always accepted the AIACR that is true but the AIACR did not accept the AAA records. I would assume the AAA kind of accepted that going in.

    I believe that 149+ by DePalma was pretty good stuff, even though it was a sanctioned one way record. I have a note by DePalma in his own handwriting that he thought he was the fastest man on earth. I do not believe DePalma thought his record took a backseat because he did it under the auspices of the AAA anymore than I think the AAA when they went out to run the clocks thought "let's go run some records that will take a backseat to records run over the pond". I have editorials by Americans at this time when they were "complaining" about the Europeans doing so well with their machinery on our tracks. There was a certain amount of American vs European pride on both sides of the Atlantic. Apparently I have fallen prey to that sentiment myself.

    I admit Depalma's was an American record AAA, not ACA. Why was it necessary for the AAA to become a member of the AIACR if the US was already a part of the AIACR? It was to bring in the AAA into the fold since they were running the records for the most part over here.

    I see the records that were accepted prior to 1928 as records set in Europe, I put the European in quotes because that is the way I read them (I know they are accepted as international). Sorry if you see my viewpoint as childish but at least I know where we stand. You are free to respond but I am putting this a lid on this topic as I don't see this going anywhere, productive. I originally tried to point out that original run of DePalma was two ways and I allowed my passion to get the better of me.-Jim
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  5. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 780

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Gee, Jim, having a bad hair day? :D

    I don't now recall the details of the AIACR formation, but I believe that James Gordon Bennett was one of leading figures, and the ACA was a charter member, I'm pretty sure. Anyway, countries can not be members, only clubs - much like all other international sporting authorities, I believe. I know, Britain has four clubs recognised by the international football (soccer) association, for example. Also note Puerto Rico in the 1911 list - not an independent nation then, I believe.

    The purpose of (inter)national sporting authorities is to "sanction" events, in other words provide the framework for the sport, e.g. rules of competition, and to keep records. The member clubs of the AIACR act as a proxy for a given territory, usually a country (but not always - see above). Hence, the ACA was the representative of the AIACR authority in the US, and it was one of its duties to oversee ("sanction") any record attempts made in the US, not by US citizens or manufacturers! As per the USAC media guide, for example, Willie Vanderbilt once held the world's speed record. I don't know where it was made, perhaps even in the US - a "European record"???

    The whole trouble stemmed from the fact that the AAA voluntarily ceded representation in the AIACR to the ACA, only for the ACA to lose all interest in the sport. Why the ACA chose not to step back and let the AAA act as AIACR rep I don't know, but from an international point of view, that was an American problem - what was the AIACR to do about it? They could have, perhaps, excluded the ACA, and invited a new club, but I don't know, maybe the statutes didn't allow that. Anyway, that's water under the bridge.

    If this sounds very bureaucratic, then that's because it is. (Sport) Authorities have to be bureaucratic, otherwise they become a joke. And the AICAR was most certainly not a joke!
     
  6. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,059

    jimdillon
    Member

    Michael I added a bit in an edit shortly before your response I suppose to show where I was coming from on the whole European sentiment. I am aware of the ACA but they played really no role at the time of DePalma's 1919 run that I am aware of. The AAA knew fully of the requirements of the AIACR and apparently cared less. I cannot figure out the AAA but they must have felt they had a certain amount of self-importance, maybe they thought they were more important than the AIACR, I do not have a clue and do not agree with how they conducted their runs. I do believe though there was a certain sentiment of the era of the European vs American and that is why I refer to it in quotes, and I suppose get wrapped up in the sentiment myself.

    I don't think the AAA said "Now Ralph get behind the wheel and risk your life and limb but I want to forewarn you that your runs are only an American record and of course they really mean little but lets do them for fun's anyways". I believe they felt they were running for the fastest time (or whatever the particular record was for).

    All this being said I do not believe this discussion is going to go anywhere or solve any racing's mysteries. I have gone on way too long anyways and will start to bore the readers and get this thread off into semi-useless personal observations-Jim
     
  7. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 780

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    I'm not trying to have the last word in this side episode, but the way I see it, the AAA saw themselves in the de facto authority position, and just did what they believed the right thing to do. And so did de Palma. Both tried to establish a legitimate record, and in a way, they did. For several reasons, too involved to trot out here in detail, I believe the AAA hoped to get accepted by the AIACR by basically doing everything the ACA was supposed to do, i.e. sanctioning races and record attempts. And, it is true, sadly, that the powers-that-be in the AIACR (mostly Frenchmen, that's right) somewhat arrogantly ignored all the "flattery" on part of the AAA. There may have been "legal" reasons, like the aforementioned statutes, but it is also a fact that many inside the AIACR took a dim view of the published speeds on American ovals.

    During research, I came upon articles about Antoine Mourre, the Frenchman who spent several months racing in America. Afterwards, he returned to France, speaking glowingly of his experiences and the speed of the American cars, and was apparently "laughed out of the academy" - nobody believed him! It took the record attempts of, iirc, Malcolm Campbell to change the view the AIACR had of the AAA. After that, the AAA timing and records were suddenly acceptable. Perhaps it was against the statutes, or perhaps merely to save face, that the old records of de Palma and Milton were not accepted retrospectively, but like I said, it was water under the bridge anyway. From a historians perspective, the speeds are entirely believable, and the record keeping of the AAA totally consistent. It's just that the records were not internationally accepted at the time, that's all. No reason to get hot today.
     
  8. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    The AIACR was founded in 1904, apparently at the suggestion of the AC de France, although there had been two previous International Automobile Conferences - both held in Paris - in 1902 and 1903. There was also what was essentially a forerunner of the CSI, an international body which had framed the rules for the Gordon Bennett Trophy. It should also be noted that one of the leading members of the ACF and a prime mover behind the AIACR was the Dutch nobleman Baron van Zuylen.

    It seems that the idea of a permanent international body had been agreed at the 1903 conference and the first full meeting of the new AIACR appears to have been held in Germany in June 1904. The original members represented France, Belgium, Austria, USA (AC of America, not the American Automobile Association), Britain, Switzerland, Italy (AC of Turin - there was not yet a national club) and Germany. By the end of the year Russia, the Netherlands, Spain, Portugal and Hungary had also joined.

    Other early member clubs included those of Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Romania and Egypt.

    edit: Just been looking at some original press reports. Too late at night here to go through them all, but the above (which is the accepted story) may not be entirely accurate!
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  9. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 243

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    Hey Jim, nothing transcends history better than original documentation. Would you be willing to share a scan of this gem with your fellow Hambers?

    I know that Randy Ema has many of the original Duesenberg records, including blue prints and business files. I hope someday it can be scanned, and digitized for scholarly research. I am curious if there is any racing information in his archive. I wrote him a letter a couple years ago, but never heard back from him.

    A few years ago Denny Duesenberg passed away, and an estate auction was held in Indianapolis. I didn't hear about it until it was over. I wish I had had the opportunity to bid on some of the documents offered for sale.

    http://www.antiquehelper.com/catalog.php?id=169&page=14
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  10. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,659

    The37Kid
    Member

  11. Duesenberg Indy engine? And it was used in a rum running boat? That's almost too cool for words! Anyone have 80k lying around I could borrow?
     
  12. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,059

    jimdillon
    Member

    Zig Zag ,hopefully this will do. This is a notation on the back of a photograph of the 905 record car. I recognize Ralph's signature and am quite sure the first five lines are in Ralph's own hand. I believe the other part was probably written by his wife Marion (it resembles her handwriting-which she has signed in the past Mrs. Ralph DePalma).

    I have other notations I believe were made by Ralph as to times and speeds etc of his record runs. Finding them easily is another matter. Right now I am working on three articles, finishing a car for the upcoming Detroit Autorama (if I can throw enough time at it) and working for a living.

    One of these days I will pull out some DePalma files and see what treasures are there.-Jim

    [​IMG]
     
  13. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 243

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    Jim that is a wonderful piece of memorabilia, thank you so much for sharing it with us. We all know how rare the cars from the golden era are, but the associated paperwork & documentation is just as scarce.

    Signatures of early speed kings are most unusual. Unlike today, I don't believe that the drivers from the teens & 1920's routinely signed autographs for fans.
     
  14. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,659

    The37Kid
    Member

    November 11, 1925, the Junior 8 and R&J Special were MILLERS as well.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. gearguy
    Joined: Jan 27, 2010
    Posts: 286

    gearguy
    Member

    TommyA19 posted this on the Cageless Midget Thread. Thanks Tommy!
    While at the Lobitz party today, November 11th, I made mention of the website below, how it covers racing in the US from 1919 to 1949, and how so many Northeastern Midget races are covered in the 40’s. At times they had the chance to race at up to six different tracks on certain days in ’47 & 48. And that was almost every day of the week – multiple tracks.
    The website is pretty large, with 1146 pages. To save time, click on a year you want to see and you’ll be led right to it.
    I was asked to post the link on “Ham”, so here ya go!

    http://www.dlg.speedfreaks.org/archi..._1919-1949.pdf
     
  16. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
    Member
    from cloud 9

    These pictures are Jose Froilan Gonzalez 1947 with his special model A that had a Murphy doble over head cam, so sayeth Raul Gattelet in Automovilsport.com
    The picture was taken in Junin , Buenos Aires and the name of the car was "Langoston" trasalation, Big Lobster.
     

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  17. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 780

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Sorry, but if it was DOHC, why are the carburettors and exhaust on the same side? :confused:
     
  18. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    This is off topic here but I am sure you guys will enjoy this......

    In the film you will be able to witness some extraordinary scenes showing the pouring of huge iron and steel castings. Also featured is the art of forging alloy steel to produce the many high-strength parts needed in locomotive practice.

    I don't know how to upload a video here, but this is a film made in the 1930s that you guys need to watch, which shows you how a steam locomotive was made. Many things learned on early locomotives were applied to the early racing car.

    The photos below show a few scenes......See the film here.
     

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    Last edited: Nov 15, 2012
  19. 1903 Winton Gordon-Bennet cup team:

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  20. the car that got me on the '03 kick was the Turcat- Mery from the paris madrid race of that year. My father has 3 books in french, one that covers that race, an awesome collection of information and images...of course, slow going as it is in french.

    [​IMG]

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    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012
  21. 1911 Delage coup de'auto team, really like that the rules that year made everyone run fenders:

    [​IMG]
     
  22. billsill45
    Joined: Jul 15, 2009
    Posts: 784

    billsill45
    Member
    from SoCal

    Excellent film and thanks for posting. You have to respect the people who built equipment like this ... not only their skills, but the fact that there was no hearing or eye protection or any other type of safety equipment in use. A career working in plants and factories like this certainly took its toll on the workers ... not jobs for sissies !!
     
  23. 1903 Panhard, Baron Pierre de Crawhez

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  24. no clue, but a great image (modern):

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  25. period post cards:

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  26. Cote (think this was 2 stroke) 1912

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  27. Gabriel in the '12 Cote

    [​IMG]

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  28. 1913 Peugot next to the Indy built copy:

    [​IMG]
     
  29. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    Soon, probably after the first of the year we are going to have a fund raiser for the McPherson College Restoration Program on The Old Motor, where people will be able to donate directly to the school towards tools or buy an item for them.

    Below is a list of some of the things they need, keep it in mind for when we have the fund raiser.
    Just remember the young fellows we help today will be carrying on for us in the future.

    We will announce it here and on The Old Motor.

    In the mean time contact me here if you would like to buy any of the following for them and I will put you in touch with their fund raising department.

    Automotive Restoration
    Equipment & Tool Needs List

    Applied Diagnostics
    Exhaust gas analyzer $4,000
    Automotive Electric Lab
    Battery Chargers – 4 $550
    Battery and electrical system scanner $2,300
    Simpson Multi-meters – 12 $3,500
    Fluke Digital meters $1,200
    Chassis & Drive Train Labs
    Spring Compressors $250
    Fluid collection tables – 6 $450 each
    Engine
    Software and parts for Dyno $2,500
    Motorcycle lab
    Tire machine $1,500
    SAE/Metric/Whitworth hand tools $2,500
    Paint Lab
    Divider curtain $3,000
    110v TIG welder $2,400
    Paint guns – 2 Iwata $750 each
    Battery powered supplied air system $2,500
    Dust collector $1,500


    Sheet metal/ Welding Lab
    Torch kits and carts – 2 $1,500
    Yoder Power Hammer $7,000
    Tubing bender $350

    Trim Shop
    Industrial sewing machine $2,000
    Wood Shop
    Hand tools
    Sanders
    Drill bits
    Biscuit Jointer
    Saw blades
    $3,000
    General Shop Equipment
    Large steel top tables – 5 $950 each
    Lab Computers – 8 $800 each
     
  30. '13 Peugot or a Delage , noted as 1926 at Brooklands w/David Higgin(s)? driving

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012

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