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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. psalt
    Joined: Apr 17, 2010
    Posts: 101

    psalt
    Member
    from nyc

    I was thinking the same on the Premier, my favorite car in the Indy musuem.

    Mine too, but with all those Millers it's hard to pick a favorite. The remarkable top end looks like a 1964 Porsche 911 engine, only the Premier has roller rockers............!
     

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  2. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 7,454

    noboD
    Member

    Does anyone know the last time it made smoke? I think I rememebr the mag being missing. Hope you guys see the windows in the side of the crankcase. Guess that was to see the crank wipe around and get oil on your face?
     
  3. psalt
    Joined: Apr 17, 2010
    Posts: 101

    psalt
    Member
    from nyc


    Mr. Weidely did design an oil pan, but it was to be worn by the driver. Was there another OHC engine in the US in 1904 when George drew this up ?
     
  4. simplex2stroke
    Joined: Nov 2, 2010
    Posts: 10

    simplex2stroke
    Member
    from USA

    Great thread.
    I'm searching for a copy of the AAA Contest Board rules for the 1909-1911 period. I'm in the process of restoring a 1909 EMF racer that reportedly raced in the LA to Phoenix (Cactus Derby), perhaps Santa Monica and some road and track races in the Phoenix area. All AAA events. The car was stripped of it's original sheetmetal in the early '60's, as the then owner didn't want an old worn out racer. He was going to convert it to a touring or roadster. Lucky for me, he didn't get around to changing the chassis modifications to stock configuration. I'm hoping to restore the car to fit the rules. I don't need and original book, just a readable copy of the rules for entries. Attached is a photo of what I have.
    Thank you,
    Glenn
     
  5. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    Glenn, (from the Autosport Nostalgia Forum) not central to what you are asking but some general commentary on the classifications established by the newly created AAA Contest Board you may find interesting on the years 1909-1911 by Mr Printz and Mr Capps
    (first 20 posts-see posts 16-20 in particular)
    http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=90310

    Best Regards
    Carl Schulz
    Indio, CA

     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
  6. simplex2stroke
    Joined: Nov 2, 2010
    Posts: 10

    simplex2stroke
    Member
    from USA

    Thanks Carl, fastinating reading. I've read that the "stock chassis" classes were put in place to get the entry list of cars to grow. Some of the early race venues couldn't get a large enough field to make it a real race. I'm going to attempt to attach the photo again. In the photo you will notice the broken transaxle laying under the car. I'm guessing that is what ended it's racing career. The axle under the car now is a 1910 unit, that I think the owner from the '60's installed.
     
  7. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    Glenn,
    Hope you get the photo attachment process figured out.
    Please keep us up to date as you piece (literally and figuratively) the history of this car together.
    Carl

     
  8. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,669

    MrModelT
    Member

    Here is an interesting shot I found in some old photos I got from a friend. This is obviously the Duesenberg Racing team (most likely Indy 500 from the early to mid 20's) but what else can you guys tell me about this photo?
     

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  9. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    Interesting indeed! The numbers visible on the tails of the #6 and #19 cars are French road registration numbers (note the distinctively Gallic style of writing 2), which would indicate that these two, presumably plus the #16 in the foreground, were used in the 1921 Grand Prix de l'ACF.

    Assuming the race numbers are unchanged, then that makes the #6 Guyot's chassis, which he drove to 6th place, and the #16 Boyer's, which retired. However, there was no #19 in the race so it's either been renumbered (in which case it might be Murphy's winning car) or was used as a training hack: my guess would be the latter. Presumably we're therefore looking at a picture taken in late 1921.

    No idea on the "world's record car" at the back, but as the AIACR and AAA seldom saw eye to eye on record runs in those days it may be a record only found in American sources.
     
  10. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

  11. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,669

    MrModelT
    Member

    Great info! Is there no way to tell from the French Road Reg numbers exactly what car #19 is? Murphy's winner or a training hack?

    How about the #3 car in the very close foreground...between the camera and the #16 car? anything on that?
     
  12. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,669

    MrModelT
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  13. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,313

    ehdubya
    Member

  14. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,067

    jimdillon
    Member

    The record car is the Double Duesy that carried (2) 300 inch Duesenberg eights that were outdated in 1920 (due to the new 3 liter requirement). This car set a number of records at Daytona in early 1920 with Murphy and Milton. There is some discrepancy I suppose with the actual speed of the records. Gary Doyle who did a considerable amount of research on his book (King of the Boards- a biography on his cousin Murphy). I have a leather bound book of photos from Duesenberg that has pictures of the car in the plant and the showroom and they (Duesenberg) claim 156.4. I think Milton's official speed was 156.045 but I have not done all of my homework on the subject so don't hold me to it. Gary Doyle goes into the topic quite a bit in his book.

    As to the cars in the plant, I believe those are the cars being readied for the 1921 French Grand Prix. The #16 car was an entrant and if you look at this winning photo the number looks like 19 but if you look close you can see the tail of the #2. Murphy's car carried the #12. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say they lettered the car with the number 19 but added the tail to change it to a 2. Maybe there already was a 19. Michael Ferner may know, as I am working without a net on this guessing game.-Jim


    [​IMG]
     
  15. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    There are quite a few race pictures on both Motorsnaps and LAT. However, I think I've solved this one. The only side view of the whole of Murphy's car - on Motorsnaps - doesn't show a road registration and when I looked through the whole lot I discovered that there in fact was a #19! The caption on the tenth picture in the LAT gallery reveals that it was driven by (and presumably entered in the name of) André Dubonnet, although he's not listed on Darren Galpin's results. Ergo: the two French-entered cars are the ones with French road registration numbers. QED :) I think all French racing cars did have to be road registered at the time: not sure when that changed.

    http://www.motorsnaps.com/v/1920s+Racing+Cars+and+drivers/1921/French+Grand+Prix/

    http://www.latphoto.co.uk/photos?q=Le+Mans+1921&per=25

    edit: Darren has Dubonnet in a Sunbeam, numbered 7. Curiouser and curiouser ... Back to the research :rolleyes:

    2nd edit: The race report in l'Ouest Éclair has Dubonnet in a Duesy!

    http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k646617p.image.langEN

    This does raise another question though - what happened to the Stars & Stripes flag on Murphy's car? Some pictures show it, but it's not apparent in others, including the several at the finish. Perhaps the ones with the flag are from practice? Given the way the team were treated after the race there was obviously an anti-American feeling around, so perhaps they removed it beforehand? It's odd that the French didn't apparently insist on Guyot's and Dubonnet's cars being painted blue either.

    So this would all therefore suggest that the pictures were taken after the cars were returned to America, rather than before travelling to France. Sorry, Jim ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
  16. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 780

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Richard, to spare you research (hours), Dubonnet was entered in a Talbot-Darracq (not a Sunbeam, but STD anyway), but replaced Louis Inghibert in the fourth Duesenberg when STD failed to complete enough cars for the race. Inghibert had crashed in practice, and appears to have been a bit out of his depth, hence his replacement.

    More on the picture anon. :)
     
  17. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 780

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    First off, the picture was clearly taken after the return of the team cars from France - photographic evidence clearly shows that they were painted white on site, and arrived on the "old continent" still painted grey. Also, you can clearly still see the grime on the cars from the tough French race - this picture was probably taken immediately after, or perhaps even on the day of their return to the factory! I've never researched this properly, so I don't have a date at hand - perhaps I'll do now if I find the time! :)

    Interesting to see the big assembly hall - I'm not an expert on road cars, but if I'm not mistaken, Model A production had only just begun in late 1920/early '21, and the production run was never very big in numbers. Perhaps expectations were a little higher than reality turned out to be?

    Anyway, the LSR Duesenberg has already been identified, so I don't need to dwell on that. I'm not sure when it was painted white, but it was already done before Indianapolis that year (it didn't appear on the track like in 1920, as far as I know, but I've seen it in pictures of a showroom at Indianapolis, and circumstancial evidence suggests those were taken in May of 1921). It was later used in dirt track racing, as the last picture testifies.

    Individual identification of the "standard" racing cars is a little bit more tricky, I'm afraid, and I never really found a satisfactory answer. Suffice it to say here, the three cars in the background are three of the four 1921 models, still carrying their race numbers from France (so, Guyot, Dubonnet and Boyer), while the car in the foreground is one of the five (perhaps six?) 1920 models, presumably the car that was driven by Guyot/Boyer/Miller to 6th at Indy, but unfortunately the picture doesn't show enough for a definite ID.

    The movements of the individual 1921 chassis is a puzzle which this picture does not fully explain, unfortunately. There are a number of pics available, and maybe I'll find the strength to delve into the problem again.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
  18. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 780

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Richard, there was clearly a US flag on the right side of Jimmy's car at the start, so it would seem that the pictures showing a left-hand flag are from practice runs. Also, all the cars were entered by Duesenberg (naturally, as it was the Grand Prix!), so there was never a question as to the colour! The road regsitration was on all four cars, too, since they were all driven on French roads during their stay in Europe! But, interestingly, I don't seem to be able to locate any pictures of the cars on race day showing them, so perhaps they were only needed on their way to and from the ship - apparently, they were overpainted at the track when the cars received their white coat, and only added again afterwards!?!
     
  19. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    [​IMG]

    1920 Tom Milton, Speed King, Daytona. A Peter Helck painting showing Tommy Milton on his way down the beach to setting a new record with his twin-engined Duesenberg racing car.


    [​IMG]

    This is a photo showing the two straight engines in the Milton record car in a post we have up on The Old Motor along with others.
     
  20. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    [​IMG]

    The Disbrow special was built by retired racing driver Lou Disbrow in 1917. After several years of searching we were finally able to uncover all the details of this fascinating car in a 1917 issue of The Automobile Magazine. All the interesting details and more photos are on The Old Motor.
     
  21. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,067

    jimdillon
    Member

    Michael your claim that the picture was after the race may very well be correct as I have not researched it but at Duesenberg they sure have a lot of time on their hands to play with numbers. If they raced the Murphy car as #12 and if the picture I submitted shows what I surmise is a #19 converted to #12 then did they change the 12 back to 19? I would have to see if there is a picture out there with the road numbers on whether this 19 matches Murphy's car?Jim
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
  22. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 780

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    #19 was Dubonnet's car, and the #12 on Murphy's was properly done up, not a #19 overpainted. Actually, I don't think I have ever seen such a slipshot manner of (re)numbering on a Duesenberg works car - I can't follow your logic there, Jim! :confused:
     
  23. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 780

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Known road registration numbers from photographic evidence:

    9233-Y4 Harry Hartz's car at San Carlos in December of 1921, repeatedly described as Dubonnet's car at the Grand Prix
    9234-Y4 #6 at workshop (Guyot's # at the Grand Prix)
    9235-Y4 #19 at workshop (Dubonnet's # at the Grand Prix)

    Statements 1 and 3 seem contradictory, but this is resolved in April and May of 1922 when Jerry Wonderlich's car is also repeatedly described as ex-Dubonnet, while Hartz still has his. Acknowledging that Murphy was said to have purchased the GP winner, we may therefore presume that Hartz actually had Boyer's car from the GP, which fits in that both ran #16 on their car, identically painted. The main problem, however, is which two of the four cars ran at Indy in 1921?
     
  24. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 780

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Well, I think it has already been pointed out that Murphy set that record speed in an 8-cylinder 300 CID Duesenberg, not this 16-cylinder 600 CID model, but I am puzzled by your response here, Richard: What, then, was the "world's record"??? :confused:
     
  25. Great article! union strikes and war killed it. darn. All the way around a great looking car!!

     
  26. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,067

    jimdillon
    Member


    Michael due to my lack of research I was not aware of Dubonnet's car carrying the #19. If you look at the #12 on the winning car and remove the tail or bottom of the number 2 it looks remarkably like a 9. I guess I draw my 2s differently. I figured you would be up to speed on this.-Jim
     
  27. found another Bert Dingley Pope Harford race shot (on ebay):
     

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  28. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,669

    MrModelT
    Member

    Jim and Mike...There is certainly the posibility of both claims being true.

    As Richard pointed out however in his original post after I put this Duesenberg factory photo up was to notice how the French Road Reg numbers are written. The # "2" in each number is done in very much the same way as the numbering on Murphy's car....in almost a Gallic fashion with the top curve of the 2 coming all the way around and bisecting it's mid-section:

    These are enlarged from the #6 and #19 cars:

    [​IMG]


    This is seen the same way here on this photo of Murphy's #12 car during the race:

    [​IMG]

    Jim is correct that the tail of the # "2" is visible in the winner's photo, but I have the feeling that it was not a re-number job.

    Like Jim said, I have not done my research either...so this is simply speculation on my part.
     
  29. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,067

    jimdillon
    Member

    Mr Model T, seeing that there was another car carrying the #19 and seeing the way the 2s are on the enlargements you supplied, sometimes it pays for me to stick to matters that I may have a better than even chance that I know what I am talking about. Here admittedly, I did not live up to that-Jim
     
  30. MrModelT
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,669

    MrModelT
    Member

    Jim, I'm not trying to give you a hard time by any means :)

    You were quite kind enough to provide some GREAT in depth information that I never would have ever found had it not been for you, Richard and Mike. I was only making a visual observation and my own opinion about the numbering.

    Heck, you could be completely right and those are re-numbers...who knows :rolleyes:

    Thank you again for the great info and history! :D
     

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