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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 243

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    Thank you Carl. I've learned a lot from both you & Mr. Ferner. The history behind these machines, the technology, and the colorful personalities is really something. The HAMB kicks ass!

    Your Miller is a Beauty. Must be a blast to work on & drive!
     
  2. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    I'm a babe in the wood when it comes to motorsport history.
    If I can just learn enough about the 91 Miller rear drives and the late 1920s on the Championship Trail I will die content.

    The knowledge exhibited by Michael and others on this forum is utterly beyond belief as is their dedication in going to the effort of sharing it with us.

    btw: If your have an interest the Historic Champ/Indycar Assn. will be three days at California Speedway Oval June 22,23,24, HSR West (Historic Sportscars) will be on the road course. If you attend be certain to stop by the garages and say hello.
     
  3. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 243

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    I'd love to take you up on your offer, but I don't live in LA, I live in LA. Luziana that is, not to be confused with Lower Alabama.
     
  4. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 243

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    I stumbled across a couple nifty photos this evening. They both feature Aviatrix Ruth Law and Aviator Jim Hester seated in a race car. Hester was credited with taking aerial photos of the Beverly Hills Board Track in 1920.

    Can anyone identify this machine?

    Pictures courtesy of the San Diego Air & Space Museum Archive

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  5. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
    Member
    from cloud 9

    Want to have a good Indianapolis history book, specially with lots on the early period, what should I buy please?
     
  6. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,949

    The37Kid
    Member

    The Indianapolis 500 by Jack Fox is the best IMO, everything up to the 1967 race. A first edition is better quality than the reprints. I used to carry my copy around and get drivers autographs, sadly most are gone now. Bob:)
     
  7. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,949

    The37Kid
    Member

    I thought there would be more INDY 500 photos posted here today. The H.D.Carpenter owned Ira Vail driven MILLER at INDY in 1925
     

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  8. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 7,568

    noboD
    Member

    What a shame, '37. Indy used to be very best, waited all month for it. Would watch qualifying,carb day and bump day. It just ain't the same any more. I JUST yesterday remembered they were going to run today. I miss the roadsters!!
     
  9. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
    Member
    from cloud 9

    As I said last year. All my admiration to you Americans, having one of the oldest and most important tracks in the world, still very much in use. Yes, the cars are 2012, not our cup of tea. All, the same, imagine if Indianapolis had gone the way of Brooklands or Monthlery.
     
  10. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,086

    jimdillon
    Member

    It is somewhat sad that the 500 is not what it once was, at least from my perspective. I looked forward every year to either going to the race or arranging a get-together with a bunch of friends. I got together a few years ago with the guys that used to go down with me and spend the weekend in a motorhome a few streets from the track. It was a happening we all looked forward to every year. Funny thing all of us lost interest for the most part. Anymore I barely even look at even a couple of laps. I was somewhat encouraged to see Chevrolet back in the game at least in name.

    There is enough blame to go-around and then the whole deal with the IRL/Indy split. I attended some of the activities last year and the place is still special but they need to do something more to bring back the magic that used to captivate my undivided attention. There are still those that still think the race is great and more power to them. As much as I liked so many things about the cars in the 80s on back, time marches on. I even used to like Gasoline Alley and the cars 30 some years ago that you could see in the garages but Indy Car I think is more big money than what I may want on my trips down memory lane. I still have a friend with a garage in Gasoline Alley and when I go there I still look around at the neighboring garages and reminisce. Some may say we are old fuddy duddy's living in the past. Funny thing is that I guess I am.

    Saacha as to the best book, Bob lists the Fox book which is a great book but there are very few books that tell the story of the early days. Probably the best information from the teens are the articles written in either of the two great magazines Motor Age and The Automobile. Some of the periodicals from the 20s tell the stories pretty well. I used to buy books on Indy but most are not really all that good.-Jim
     
  11. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,241

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    To me Indy lost the lure when the cars all started to grow wings and little screeching engines. Always loved the roadsters and Offys.
     
  12. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 7,568

    noboD
    Member

    Some old friends used to go every year. Through connections they had pit passes, bought with Lebanon balognas, a local delicasy. They hung out with all the greats of the time and were invited to many of the parties. The last years that they went they staied the whole month and came home to watch the race on TV. Unfortunately they are gone now.
     
  13. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 10,953

    gnichols
    Member
    from Tampa, FL

    If you didn't like today's race, you need a jump start! Gary
     
  14. Rattle Trap
    Joined: May 11, 2012
    Posts: 358

    Rattle Trap
    Member

    The Lakeside Track picture was just a few miles from where I live. My Family has lived in the area for over 150 years. Im not sure where the second picture was taken.
     

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  15. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,086

    jimdillon
    Member

    Rattle Trap the first pic is of course Barney Oldfield in the Peerless Green Dragon. The second pic is I believe the San Diego Exposition Road race which I think was at Point Loma. The #9 car with the Puente Gas uniform I believe was Fred McCarthy in a Peugeot. The car in front of him is Rickenbacker in another Peugeot that Rickenbacker owned and drove in late 1914 (Corona) and then at San Diego (this event) in January of 1915. Rickenbacker at this time was also driving with the Puente Gas sponsorship uniforms.

    Rickenbacker had little success with this Peugeot and he unloaded the car onto Harry Miller. Bob Burman also had his Peugeot in this race and although Michael Ferner may disagree with me I believe this #7 car was to become Burman's second Peugeot.-Jim
     
  16. Rattle Trap
    Joined: May 11, 2012
    Posts: 358

    Rattle Trap
    Member

    jimdillon Thank you very much.
     
  17. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    Last edited: May 28, 2012
  18. Rattle Trap
    Joined: May 11, 2012
    Posts: 358

    Rattle Trap
    Member

    Awesome find Carl s.
     
  19. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,949

    The37Kid
    Member

    Jim, These photos just turned up in an office cleanup, I may have posted them before. I think its a later Peugeot or Peugeot copy, photo is from the Dewey Avenue track Rochester, N. Y. in 1922. there is something special about that long tail era 1916-22. Bob
     

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  20. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,086

    jimdillon
    Member

    Bob I am not sure about the car you posted as I have never tried to track its history. If I was to make a guess I would say it may be a real Peugeot with the hole in the hood to adjust the stock carb.

    As to the Point Loma date I am quite sure that the San Diego Historical Society is not correct on the date as the picture I believe was taken on January 9, 1915. You can see the cars in order of the numbers and the race winner was Earl Cooper in his # 8 Stutz, which is clearly the car in the picture.

    Also both the #7 and #9 Peugeots retired with rod bearing failure. Rickenbacker in his autobiography discusses this race as his second and last race with the Peugeot before he off loaded to Harry Miller (the only other race was Corona in November 1914). Also I am not sure how many cars that Rickenbacker drove with his Puente Gas white uniforms as he did on this day (along with McCarthy).

    The press had reported that Cooper's time was slow in comparison to some of his other racetracks but they felt it may have been due to the grades and the fact that the course was new.

    Although they could have tested on the track possibly in late 1914 but I doubt they would have lined up in the racing order with the numbers on the cars. I have no records of any event on any Point Loma race course for 1914.

    There was a pretty good crowd that day (50,000) as the race was promoted by the Al Bahr temple of the Mystic Shrine to advertise the Panama-California exposition, which opened in Point Loma on New Years day of 1915. One hundred nobles of the order each put up $100 for a grand total of $10,000. An additional $2500 had been put up if the world's racing record had been broken but they never took that money out of the bank.

    Still a nice find Carl-Jim
     
  21. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,949

    The37Kid
    Member

    Thanks Jim, I've seen a photo of the tail opened to get the spair tire out of the above Peugeot, note the bulge in the bottom to allow enough room. Neat feature, must have been a way around some rules of the day. Bob
     
  22. memaerobilia
    Joined: Mar 24, 2004
    Posts: 191

    memaerobilia
    Member

    Amazing times for racing!. To put that into perspective: Many of those 50,000 in attendance, had never yet ridden in a car, much less owned one, to get to the race. And the purse was an astronomical amount to the spectators, with average weekly income of 1915, being some $13 a week, at the time..(it was not uncommon for a skilled hourly wage earner-at a factory job, working a six day week, to be given a raise of 1/2 cent per hour! at the time)
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2012
  23. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,086

    jimdillon
    Member

    Joe you got that right. Earl Cooper took home $5000 for first place, quite a large sum for the times. My grandfather worked in the Packard experimental department in 1915 and I believe he was earning $3 a day for a 10 hour shift. When he was a stock chaser in 1914 I believe he made $2.65 for a 10 hour shift.-Jim
     
  24. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 10,953

    gnichols
    Member
    from Tampa, FL

    Just like today... bunch of guys with Mega$ or sponsors, racing stuff no one else can afford, pretending that anyone can do it / it is an open competition and getting JQ Public (local government / chamber of commerce) to pay for it. Ha ha. Still, I'll usually pay to watch. Gary
     
  25. People who speak of 'the good old days' tend to forget that a Miller 122 base price was $15,000 new...that is $201,000 in 2012 money-for one car with no spares, no crew, no tools. Throw in some spares and such and you could easily sail past $250,000. Racing at the highest levels has always been costly.
     
  26. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,949

    The37Kid
    Member

    Ira Vail along with others would buy a new MILLER race it for a year then sell it. I have most of the receipts for running his 122 after he sold it to H.D.Carpenter. I think racing it at Altoona cost a total if $125. I have the itemized bill somewere. Bob
     
  27. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 784

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    How'dya know? :D

    Well, we've discussed this before, and although I once believed Burman to have had a second Peugeot (due to an erroneous entry in the Jack Fox Indy bible), I am now one hunnert percent sure he didn't. Just recently, I looked very hard into the doings of the Burman/Erbes stable in 1915/6, and I think I have a pretty good picture of what went on - no sign of a second Pug, though. Sure enough, Burman had two engine blocks to go with the car, in addition to two sets of most of the moving parts (except for the valve train), which may have added to the confusion.

    The Rickenbacher car (which he didn't own, as far as I know - it was always entered by the Peugeot Import Co. of Alphonse Kaufman) was used by Dario Resta during his victorious drives in the 1915 Vanderbilt and Grand Prize events, that's pretty solidly recorded; after that, I lose track. It's not easy to track Peugeots during that time, as there were quite a number around in the US and they soon dropped from sight because of rule changes. The #37 looks like an (almost) unmolested EX5, and I believe it to be Ray Lampkin's, which was most often described as the 1919 Indy 500 winner, but also as ex-de Palma. Lampkin may, in fact, have owned two Peugeots for all I know!

    During the twenties, a great number of famous (and not so famous) racers drove Peugeots at one time or another, including Joe Boyer, Ray Lampkin, Norske Larson, Al Cotey, Cliff Woodbury, Fred Horey, Ray Claypool, Zeke Meyer, Andy Burt, Buddie Marr, Gus Schrader, Roy Ketchum, Ray Keech, Jimmy Gleason, Harry Nichols, Tommy Reed, Benny Brandfon, Sig Haugdahl, Red Maley, Putty Hoffman, Chris Vest, Jack Johnson, Billy Washwick, Bill Strickler, Roy Blackwell, Orville Zook, George Lyons, Ray La Plante and many, many more. It would really be something to trace individual car histories through this myriad of drivers! Alas, I fear too much time has passed to make more than educated guesses these days. :(
     
  28. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    There is a myth that creative mechanics ''discover race winning tricks" and beat the big guys. I has happened but it's rare. Speed costs money. Not romantic but true more than not.

    After years or restoring race cars I have seen what many do to open the car and let all the speed out.
     
  29. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,086

    jimdillon
    Member

    Michael as I have said in the past we may have to agree to disagree.I am quite sure he had two Peugeots and there is the one article where he took both cars to the track. Who are we to come along today and say the person that wrote the article was wrong? I generally give credence to the present day writers to an extent. Rickenbacker says in his autobiography that he off loaded that car to Miller (p62). Manyof the cars came out of Kaufman's dealership originally. I would need some better proof to change my story.

    In addition the two pictures in the Dees book appear to be different cars. The hoods are different, the frame and position of the rivets are different, the shape of the cowls are different the rivets at the leading edge of the cowl lower edge are different, the bend of the header is different. In fact the only thing the same is the spelling of the car Peugeot.

    You may be convinced but I may have to wait for some more definitive bench racing in the clouds to really straighten it out. Fun nevertheless-Jim
     
  30. debbs
    Joined: May 30, 2012
    Posts: 2

    debbs
    Member

    Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum, was looking for information or picture of my great grandfather Claude R(Raymond) Newhouse. I was told that in the Indpls 500 he was the mechanic that "hung onto the race car" and know that he came in 6th place in Galveston in 2013. All our pictures and memorablia was stolen re: ggf. I was told by my gf Claude E. Newhouse that his dad was great friends with Wild Bill Endicott .. that's about the extent of what the great grandkids know and I was looking for something to pass onto the great-great grandkids.. no way was I going to go thru 397 pages of posts ... thanks for any information.
    debbs
     

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