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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. '34...damn fingers...

    At the same time a picked up a copy of Tim Birkin's book "Full Throttle", that is a blast. He definately had a lot of fun. I picked up a First edition, 3rd printing. First printing was November '32, and the third was in February '33, enclosed in the book was a newspaper clipping from of his passing in June of '33.
     
  2. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    Entertaining read, but perhaps over-dramatised a bit by his ghost-writer.
     
  3. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,996

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    The document does mention the 'new' 1904 Act where index marks were issued according to the descending population.
    Something else that arroused my interest was the withdrawal of Dorset's original mark of BF with new letters of FX in late 1904. It was suggested that the letters 'BF' had ungentlemanly connotations. I tried my best to work out this abbreviation but i'm stumped. What is so ungentlemanly about this?
     
  4. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,996

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    II Coupe du Tsar or what is commonly known as the Emperor's Prize. Same rules as the previous running in 1910 but a different route. This trial started at St.Petersberg with the first point being at Reval, Estonia then onto Riga, Warsaw, Kiev and Moscow. For some reason only 19 entries started and 11 finished, 3 of whom didn't accrue any penalty points. This was the last of the long distance races in Russia.

    I have this photo as Mr. Keinast in a Komnick at the start at Reval, others have it as Herr von Luecke.

    #10 Komnick of Weiner at Kiev.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2011
  5. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,996

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Otto Komnick or better known as 'The Red Devil' because of the color of his cars was the son of Franz Komnick - founder of Automobilfabrik F.Komnick. He is posing here with a Type 30, probably at the Kadinen Mountain Climb in E. Prussia where he was victorious in 1924.
     

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  6. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    Ah, must have missed that reference.

    BF = bloody fool ;) Passes unremarked today, but not a phrase used in polite society a century ago. In addition to the list given at least one other 3-letter combination was never issued: WOG. Other "naughty" ones did slip through, though - notably FU2! :D Surprised he doesn't explain that MAN was used on cars registered in the Isle of Man, in addition to their normal MN series.
     
  7. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,996

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    I remember when the Australian Tourism television Ad campaign "Where the bloody hell are ya" first hit English shores it was deemed too offensive. I don't know if it was ever pulled from British TV but it kept screening here for some reason.
    I did have a slight suspicion the term WOG was invented by a POM.:D
     
  8. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
    Member
    from cloud 9

    Would I be correct if I said USA was years ahead of Europe in single seater track racing cars? The 1904 Peerless driven by Oldfield. Is it correct to say Europe did not have any proper circuits till Brooklands?
     
  9. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    It depends on what you mean by a "proper circuit". Before World War I Brooklands (1907) and Indianapolis Motor Speedway (1909) were the only purpose-built motor racing circuits with a permanent (concrete, tarmac or brick as opposed to wood or dirt) surface, which would be my definition. The British RAC had proposed one as early as 1903, but abandoned the project after the Paris-Madrid disaster.

    Most race regulations demanded two-seaters and/or riding mechanics so the development of single-seaters depended on local rules. There were a few single-seater racing cars built in Britain in the early years of Brooklands - "Pearly" and "Toodles II" for example - but they could generally only race at Brooklands or perhaps in sprints and hillclimbs and their main use was often for speed records.

    The development of single-seaters only really started in Europe from 1934, when the rule that Grand Prix cars had to have two seats was abolished (even though riding mechanics had been banned in 1924!)
     
  10. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,996

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    The Ford 999 immediately comes to mind. The Olds Pirate was most certainly a single seater. Winton and the Packard Gray Wolf are others i assume could be considered the same depending on where they were racing.
     
  11. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,996

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    HAPPY EASTER TO ALL

    [​IMG]
     

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  12. Buildy
    Joined: Jan 29, 2008
    Posts: 1,521

    Buildy
    Member

    Happy Easter, Gentlemen!

    Happy Easter to any ladies reading as well!
     
  13. pibe
    Joined: Apr 14, 2011
    Posts: 1

    pibe
    Member
    from Argentina

    Hi there all ...
    Thanks to a friend I found this forum that deals with history and looking though it I was impressed with the photographs and bibligraphy published.
    As a first topic I wish to ask in the hope some one may replay on the following.
    What is the origin of the checkerd flag and why was it used in auto racing?
    So far I have the following information.
    Fred Egloff affirms that the flag to pictures in the Gildden Tour of 1906 begins to be used.

    http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/382/vanderbiltcup1906.jpg
    Photographic evidence in wich most historians agree is this picture of the 1906 Vanderbilt Cup, as the very first documented evidence.<O:p></O:p>
    <O:p</O:p
    Also exists this photo with no data, so I do not know the date, but by the garments seems to belong to this era, but the question is this before or after?.
    <O:p</O:p
    http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3284/banderaacuadrosjuez.jpg
    Little I know or have been able to find out, looks like an AAA (American Automobile Assosiation) authority holding a checkerd flag possibly before the end of the XX century.

    But I have found this photograph dated 1901, Paris Berlin arrival, Henri Founier in his Mors.

    http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2853/banderaacuadrosparisber.jpg
    The area I refeer to, I belive is a checkerd flag is marked in yellow.
    http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6863/banderaacuadrosparisberf.jpg
    <O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    Original photo with no tuch up, the ring that Emperor Frederick Wilhem II? holds in his righthand (he had a problem in his left arm since his birth) is upright and pointing, shows that it has attached a cloth with black and with squares. This is just above and behind the left front wheel of the Mors of Fournier and rather covered by the headlamp. This type of ring was usually attached to the chassis and made of leather or wire and was used for towing cars when stuck in the mud.
    <O:p
    Reference this 1901 image, I would like to tell you I have had it checked by people with photographic and PC knowledge and they agree this could very well be a checkered flag.
    <O:p</O:p
    Please excuse me if I have been rather long, but I hope to recive some kind answer to my quest.
    <O:p</O:p
    Kind regards from Argentina.
     
  14. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    The chequered/checkered flag was used in European bicycle racing as far back as the 1860s: as some of the early racing drivers and probably some of the officials had been involved in bicycle racing it makes sense that they would have brought the idea with them. In the same way, words like "paddock" and "stewards" came from horse racing.
     
  15. Mr. Vitesse,

    Have you come across a book called the "Motorists Weekend Book"? or "The Grandprix Carpet Baggers"? I picked them up this weekend.

    I'm almost done with Barres' "Grand Prix", such wonderful details, and the writting is so wonderful.
     
  16. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    Excellent little anthology. Look out also for the two volumes of the Motorist's Bedside Book: same publisher - Batsford - and in similar vein.
    Errrm ... yeeesss ... well ... I hope you didn't pay too much for it. It was the first nomination in a Worst Ever Book on F1 Racing thread at the Autosport BB - a pal of mine discovered the fascinating fact in it that the Cooper-Vauxhall, built in 1949, was apparently powered by a Vauxhall Viva engine! Lots of caption errors and quite a few other mistakes as I recall: I borrowed it from the library and read it once about thirty years ago.

    It's right down there in the basement with "Niki Lauda and the Grand Prix Gladiators", Tom Rubython's Senna book, "Motor Racing's Strangest Races", "Michael Schumacher: The Quest For Redemption" and everything by Keith Botsford.

    If you want a good book on Cooper, you can't go wrong with Doug Nye's "Cooper Cars", which also covers some of the pre-war Brooklands stuff.
     
  17. Great...looks like I took a bath on a signed copy. Guess it happens.

    Back to a different subject, i have found that almost anything that was published by "GT Foulis" is well worth reading, that house must have been the go to place for automotive subjects 30 years.

    Will keep an eye out for the Bedside book, my mother works at central library back home, and gets first dibs on anything once it has been cataloged. Recently a collection came in that had about 100 first rate titles, including the Weekend Motorist, the Specials book, etc.


    Btw, has a book been writen by or about Archie Frazer Nash? or Syndey Allard?


     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2011
  18. model.A.keith
    Joined: Mar 19, 2007
    Posts: 6,279

    model.A.keith
    Member

    Algonquin Hill Climb 1908. Chicago



    [​IMG]


    .
     
  19. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    Yes, Foulis was one of the motoring and motor sport publishers in the 40s, 50s and 60s: it eventually became a division of Haynes, who still occasionally use it as an imprint for more cerebral history titles.
    Not specifically on Archie himself, but there is a very good authorized history of the AFN Group by Denis Jenkinson, called "From Chain Drive to Turbocharger". Published by Patrick Stephens (another firm which eventually became part of Haynes).

    There are two books on Allard, both published in 1977 - "Allard" by David Kinsella (Haynes) and - probably better, but now rare and expensive - "Allard: the Inside Story" by Tom Lush (Motor Racing Publications).
     
  20. Very cool, thanks.

    I have been on a kick for first hand or period accounts of racing. Hence the Birkin, Barre Lyndon, etc...

    My father has everything from 1890 through the great war, and a lot of stuff from the 20's/30's. So i have a pretty good library to build on.

    That being said...still lots of good stuff to be read.

     
  21. If you are anywhere in the SoCal area this weekend, you ought to treat yourself and your family to an inexpensive outing.:)
    [​IMG]
     
  22. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    Some other 1920s and 1930s ones you may or may not know:

    "Motor Racing" by SCH (Sammy) Davis; "Safety Fast" by Goldie Gardner; "Amateur Racing Driver" by TP Cholmondeley-Tapper; "Racing Round the World" and "Nuvolari" by Johnny Lurani; "Racing Driver's World" by Rudi Caracciola; "Split Seconds" by Raymond Mays; "Motor Racing with Mercedes Benz" by George Monkhouse; "Dick Seaman" by Prince Chula - plus all his others; "Bits and Pieces" by Bira; "Wheel Patter" by Dudley Colley (racing in Ireland in the 30s - lots of Frazer Nash interest); "Wheelspin" by CAN May; "Grand Prix Driver" by Hermann Lang.

    Some biographies: "Freddie Dixon" by David Mason; "Parry Thomas" by Hugh Tours; "High Speed Diary - the life and fast times of Reginald Ellis Tongue" by Eric Dymock and "Reg Parnell" by Graham Gauld.
     
  23. Furby-

    I know that I've been a broken record on this one, but John Gerber's "Outlaw Sprint Car Racer" is a must- you'll love reading his exploits!
     
  24. Very familiar with that book, had a copy for years. Also, you should check out "The Bobby, The Babe, and Me", it is a good account of racing model T engined car on the USWC.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2011
  25. Thanks for that list, I have a bunch on there...but more to look for!!

     
  26. hddennis
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 40

    hddennis
    Member
    from Georgia

    After 6 months and no replies, today I stumbled across this with a Google image search. Sure looks like the same car to me. Does anyone recognize the body from the dash back? Could it possibly be an earlier Maxwell body?
    Thanks, Howard Dennis
     

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    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
  27. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,996

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    It looks very similar to McNamara's car although it looks like it has a commercial cowl.

    Just so everyone knows what car Howard is actually talking about, follow his previous post below.

     
  28. model.A.keith
    Joined: Mar 19, 2007
    Posts: 6,279

    model.A.keith
    Member

  29. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 28,293

    The37Kid
    Member

    I like the one with the wire wheels, but that windsheild sure looks odd for a new car.:)
     
  30. hddennis
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 40

    hddennis
    Member
    from Georgia

    I have to agree with you Bob, it seems like a Duval inspired windshield which would seem much later in time? I have no idea when this was taken as my inquiry for more info hasn't been answered yet.

    Here's where I found it:

    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:21&biw=1245&bih=514
     

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