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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. Buildy
    Joined: Jan 29, 2008
    Posts: 1,521

    Buildy
    Member

  2. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    1908 Briarcliff Road Race, NY. - Harry Michener in his Lozier.....

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  3. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Max,

    I didn't know this was the Paris-Madrid car until i read your post above and i'm interested to know the history of the Type O but this is proving difficult to find. I took the liberty of tracking the car's movement's from France into the U.S. using nothing more than newspaper articles and results up to the Cuban race.

    I searched through many New York Times articles hoping to find anything related to William Gould Brokaw as i have a photo of him aboard a Type O at Ormond Beach in 1904. I was somewhat suprised to find many stories about Brokaw, a wealthy playboy that inherited a fortune from his father who was a prominent New York clothier. He also kept company with other wealthy individuals such as the Vanderbilt's, Astor's, Morgan's, etc; and found an interest in speed. He owned many fast yacht's but later turned his attention to cars. He is mostly remembered for his miriad of troubles in the court room fighting to keep his money from first, his lover and later from his second wife.

    I don't exactly know when the car came into the U.S. but i did find that Brokaw was the buyer and the first race he entered{i think} was at Brighton Beach, NY. on the 31st October 1903. Brokaw's driver was Maurice Bernin and he placed 1st in three races.
    10 MILES- UNDER 1800 POUNDS. THE SEASIDE SCURRY.
    15 MILES- FREE FOR ALL.
    PURSUIT RACE- FREE FOR ALL-RECORD CUP.
    The next outing was the 29th January, 1904 Ormond Beach Races at Daytona, Florida. Bernin again was the driver but it's reported that Brokaw entered a Gentlemans Race. No results for this. From here it gets tricky as Brokaw is reported to have ordered another Renault car from France.
    I have Bernin at Yonkers. Empire City, NY. on the 16th to 18th July in a Renault 30hp. On the 16th he finished 1st in a 10 MILE RACE for vehicles 881-1432 pounds. On the 18th he was 2nd in the HANDICAP RACE and second again in the 1 MILE- RECORD TRIALS behind the Mercedes of Carl Mensel although the Renault was the faster car. It should be pointed out that the Type O Renault weighed under 700 pounds hence my suspicions.

    At this time of the year Maurice Bernin has left the country and returned to France. while there he oversee's the construction of Brokaw's new Renault/s but he would later return to drive for him again. After this the trail gets lost but there is a mention of a Renault 30hp driven by William Wallace and Joseph St. George in a race for cars of 551-881 pounds which make sense, but i can't confirm who the car belongs to as W.G.Brokaw is rumored to have sold the car. The trail picks up again when Major Charles Miller is reported to be the new owner. I have no information about him other than he was responsible for Louis Chevrolet's foray into auto racing and his father was a General Major in the Army and a wealthy individual. I found a report of another "Red Bug" Renault 30hp driven by Joe Tracy and placing 1st in the INTERNATIONAL CUP at Yonkers, Empire City, NY on the 24th September 1904 so i would assume this was the car's first outing with a new owner and driver. Fom there it's off to Cuba for the 15th Febuary 1905 Havana-San Christobal race with Tracy again driving. I have a feeling that the car returned to the U.S. as i have results from the 20th May and 10th June 1905 meetings at Morris Park, NY where Major C. Miller entered the car. After this i can't find anything related to Miller and his Renault.

    I know this won't help you with the accuracy of your build but i'd like to keep this on top in the hope that more info will surface. Corrections are welcome.
     
  4. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
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    from Australia

  5. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
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    from Australia

  6. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
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    T-Head
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  7. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 248

    Vitesse
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    from Bath, UK

    That would be one of these then? Renault FT17 :)
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  8. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
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    from Paradise.

    Vitesse.....You think it is a tank motor? I thought it was a really nice drawing w/great detail and class.....
     
  9. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Are we turning our attention to military vehicles or are the both of you just giving the rest of us another lesson about the French and their pioneering effort's in all thing's mechanical?

    Speaking of class, the 17 was an American designation number.
     
  10. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 24,335

    The37Kid
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    I like the looks of this car, very different for the era. Does anyone have more info on the wheels and the guy wires?[​IMG]
     
  11. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 24,335

    The37Kid
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    The Gus Schrader OFFY was one of the first cars restored by Chuck Davis (#4708) wonder who has it now?
     
  12. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 24,335

    The37Kid
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    Did the 1908 BENZ share any parts with a 1908 Mercedes? I know the chassis were different.[​IMG]
     
  13. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 248

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    Well, "char" is French for tank, so that was a bit of a clue!

    The layout of "your" engine can actually be seen in profile on the cross-section I posted.
     
  14. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
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    T-Head
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    Thanks again.
     
  15. T-Head
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    T-Head
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    from Paradise.

     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2010
  16. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
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    from Paradise.

    1910 Founders Day Race in Philly won by Len Zengle.

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  17. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
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    from Australia

    Cottin et Desgouttes.

    This car was quite successful during 1911 and 1912.
    In 1911 with Georges Deydier driving it placed first in the Limonest Hillclimb, it set the fastest time at the Val Suzon Hillclimb and at the GP de France {organised by the AC de la Sarthe for the purists}, fastest time again at the Mont Ventoux Hillclimb and was first in class at the Geneva Kilometer race. In 1912 again with Deydier driving, it placed first at the Limonest Hillclimb and placed first with a new class record at Mont Ventoux.

    In 1912, Englishman Lord Carbery bought the car to race at Brooklands {I might need Richard to help with any info if the car did in fact race in England as i don't have all the results}. In 1914 it was rebodied {see third photo} and later sold to the Bunbury Family of Woodbridge. It sold again in the 20's to Anthony Heal.

    In 1949 Heal sold the car to Jombo Goddard who removed the body {see fourth photo} and it stayed in this guise until he sold the car in 1960 to Tom Wheatcroft and it stayed with him until 2001. In 2002 George Wingard aquired the car and restored it to the Grand Prix version. It later won a couple of awards at Pebble Beach.

    Another interesting story in the cars history was a cameo appearance in the movie Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. {car #37 in last photo}
     

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  18. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 24,335

    The37Kid
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    Did we ever find out what happened to this car? Were is it now?[​IMG]
     
  19. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    RE: post #4720

    More photos of the Cottin et Desgouttes and a very short video at the 2009 Monterey Historics.

     

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  20. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 24,335

    The37Kid
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    Thanks Kurtis! Wonder what George will bring to Hershey this year? Really nice guy with the greatest collection of early race cars IMO.
     
  21. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 248

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    Thanks for putting me on the spot ;)

    As far as I can tell, the C&D appeared only once at Brooklands, in August 1913. It seems not to have troubled the lap charters.
     
  22. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
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    from Paradise.

     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2010
  23. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Well, you are the resident expert on early european races.

    Until i can get my hands on a good book i'm gonna keep bothering you.:D
     
  24. Max Halstock
    Joined: May 6, 2010
    Posts: 20

    Max Halstock
    Member
    from England

    Kurtis,

    Thanks. This is great. It all helps build up the history of the car and you never know what leads it may produce. There is no such thing as too much information.
     
  25. Indeed, 2004 has seen the latest Blitzen-Benz taking shape, an American collector refusing to be intimidated by the costs involved and commissioning the construction of what is in effect the seventh 200-hp Benz. In a remarkable show of trust, the Mercedes-Benz Museum loaned him its own Blitzen-Benz for a period of a year to serve as a template for this most extraordinary of projects. Mercedes also supplied the parts from the Hornsted car still held in its stocks- including engine no. 9141 and several other essential components - in order to add as much authenticity as possible to the reproduction. Sections of an original body, meanwhile, were still available in the USA.

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  26. memaerobilia
    Joined: Mar 24, 2004
    Posts: 191

    memaerobilia
    Member

    Can anyone help with photos, dwgs. tech reports in old periodicals, library sources, or other detailed references for?: Will pay for the info,or copies etc.
    Driven by Alfieri Maserati and called the Isotta Fraschini special it won
    the 1922 Circuit of Mugello.
    It has a serious Aircraft connection with Isotta Frascjhini. Possibly converted to Hisso engine at one point? Would especially appreciate info on the Hisso version, if true.
     
  27. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 24,335

    The37Kid
    Member

    Ratamahata, I think that BENZ clone is finished and running, unless another is under construction. One of the originals was broken up for parts, the radiator wound up on this dirt track in Pottsville, Pa. The rear axle I was told was the on in Parry Thomas' BABS.
     

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