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Technical ***August 2017 Banger Meet - The Dog Days and Bangers***

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Jiminy, Jul 31, 2017.

  1. joemac05
    Joined: Jul 29, 2006
    Posts: 310

    joemac05
    Member

    Looks like it's just the way a Model A/B Engine is without some sort of vent modification.
     
  2. joemac05
    Joined: Jul 29, 2006
    Posts: 310

    joemac05
    Member

    Thanks Herb, the real interesting part is that in your experience this actually fixes what seems to be a universal problem with these engines. I'm late to the party on these engines but have been an auto mech since forever. Right from the get go when someone showed me how to work on anything they would hammer me with this sort of information to show me how to get it apart and then how to stop it from happening again. I have seen lots of folks explain how to get a frozen A/B distributor out but I always seem to have missed the part about stopping it from happening.

    I got the head on last night and will post a picture when I get a bit more time....
     
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  3. Dema Elgin designed and ground the cam. I think he saw the damage (albeit slight) to the cam lobes done by the pistons catching up to the exhaust valves and slapping them shut. The dummy (a moonlighting County employee) in my machinist/builders's shop failed to "Mock Up" the head as directed. I didn't experience any "Float"; but a valve going through a piston sure got my attention!

    "Dawg"

     
  4. joemac05
    Joined: Jul 29, 2006
    Posts: 310

    joemac05
    Member

    Here is a picture of the fitting installed with an open vent pipe for now. Noe a lot of room with a stock exhaust manifold. I customized the fitting a bit and the threaded counter bore into the head is quite shallow, don't need to see water.

    upload_2017-8-22_22-26-51.png
     
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  5. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    O' DAWG

    People often don't know that the valves are NOT closest at TDC BUT 10 DEGREES BEFORE AND AFTER.

    You know how to check this. It is easy.
    Race motors are assembled and striped several time to check and fit things
    before final assembly
    You've spent a lot of money on that lump.... sad you shop doesn't care enough
    Sorry I still don't like there open pressures. But then I wouldn't let my wife's Topolino run on single valve springs much less your race engine.

    How was Laguna?
     
  6. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,192

    johnneilson
    Member

    I learned long ago that the Piston is always chasing the ex valve to the seat, except L motors.
    I typically do a clay check right after setting the cam timing and look for .100 minimum clearance of piston to valve.
    You can get away with less on the intake, .050 min.
    John
     
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  7. Yup! I knew that! But the dummy County "moonlighter" disregarded my requirements. It cost the shop owner a bundle. The only thing to do (other than do it myself) is stand over them and remind them what they need to do. I think that I'll use that shop for their Mag Table and some machine work. I'll take the real crucial stuff up to "Smokey" Allemon.
     
  8. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    I learned that in old racers you got to park's in the corner and then drag race to the next corner so tractable torque is more important than the last 3% of HP outside the car ability and drivers ball size... so always work for more grunt than couple hundred RPMs the car get to in a nano-second of each lap
    When I was into real racing everything was on kill but with the old cars and drivers it's more like maybe hurt than kill. AND with some drivers it was more about lunch than winning.... You can get closer than 100thou but that is close enough for most of the guys running well bellow the centerwire cement oozin out
     
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  9. brjnelson
    Joined: Oct 13, 2002
    Posts: 467

    brjnelson
    Member

    I am getting my rear in gear, for the Hotrod Hillclimb. IMG_1973.jpg
    On the OMG road, at the reliability run last year I turned around, NOT THIS YEAR.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  10. Binger
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,697

    Binger
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from wyoming

    Looking for the OMG road We turned the wrong way and drove up a crazy logging road. We turned around and eventually found the right route. The view was completely worth it! Looking forward to the hill climb again this year.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  11. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 2,191

    winduptoy
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    On round two. I didn't mention that the piston is a .020" oversize 392 piston. The B block is a diamond block that was .125" over to make it the 4" that a 392 piston is stock. The block sonic tested that it would go another .020 to clean up the bores. That put the fire ring on the head gasket hanging out into the cylinder bore. I got some gaskets that corrected that but my first round coolant ran a path thru the steam holes, into the pistons. For some reason I went to the place that I was putting a B head on a B block with a B gasket and didn't block the steam holes. That isn't the case now. The holes are plugged in the head and block. Coolant is staying out of the cylinders and not blowing out the tail pipe.
    I took it for first drive with one English 97 on it and it doesn't have enough carburation. I'll do some tuning with the one carb set up but it looks promising. Higher compression with a stock head.
    On a side note and a note to self: the EGGE pistons were 36 grams apart in weight. Finally just paired two of the same weights on 1-2 and 3-4 but there wasn't enough material on the heavy ones to take off with out compromising the piston. I believe the difference is in the steel reinforcing cast in the piston for the wrist pin.
     
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  12. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    I'm sorry too tell you I've known far too many people that have had problems EGGE's pistons.
     
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  13. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,192

    johnneilson
    Member

    +1
     
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  14. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 7,376

    noboD
    Member

    A friend just bought valves from them. The stems varied by 3/4 of a thousandth.
     
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  15. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    There are nice people at EGGE It's just some of the production that are talentless or don't give a fuck

    Doug
    Get stainless blanks from TRW or S&S The stems a ground properly and you can finish them up yourself. Both have a very good selection small, big, whatever. I got a full set of DB6 valves for less than Aston Martin wanted for one valve from TRW... Chevy's fit!
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
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  16. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,192

    johnneilson
    Member

    My latest monster requires some very long valve stems and I found the Blanks from SI to be just the ticket.
    Manley, TRW and the others are very good no doubt.
    I have never had any luck with Egge, The customer service there has kept me from buying anything, and as they saying goes, "You never know the worst luck you were saved from by having some Bad Luck".

    FWIW,
    I know that price is a concern among many of our decisions when buying parts but with rods, pistons, cranks and valves you get what you pay for. Ross, Venolia, Arias, Carrillo have existed for years and are worth every cent in critical components.

    John
     
  17. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    John

    You know I meant SI Valves
    All my contacts there are retired. Carrillo hasn't been good since the canned Jack Sparks

    I'm no longer in their computer. NO LOSS. 30+years as WD for Venolia counts for zero and don't get me started about DEVES PISTON RING CO..... I don't think they have any clue what they have or care. Even Venolia quit tring to buy from them.

    I do know that SI charges a flat rate for each maching operation they do to a valve, or they did once. It was much cheaper to modify their forgings than paying them to do simple things like keeper grooves.



     
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  18. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 2,191

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I know that there are other suppliers out there and EGGE is on the bottom of my list for obvious reasons. This was a reminder to me of that. The automotive machine shop I use (and we have limited choices here) acquired them. Knowing what I know now I would have given up on them before I started messing with them to make it where they would work. This was a note to remind me that in the future don't invest any time in their product. The good news is that this is the smoothest (most vibration free) B engine that I've ever been around. It runs respectable too for what it is. I pulled a roughly 1 mile stretch of road that is roughly 5% grade that tops out at 7100' elevation. It topped out at 45 mph. It is kind of my calibration hill. The old 'A' engine pulled it at 46-47 mph. My Miller/Crager OHV Roadster pulls it at 67 mph but it is in a different class.


    John, let us know about your 'Monster'
     
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  19. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 2,191

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

     
  20. At the races on the track of Laguna Seca last weekend we ran with the top five during the laps of practice on Thurs. and Friday. In the Qualifying Race on Saturday morning about halfway through the session a cylinder dropped out so I went into the pits. We took the valve cover off and found that a snap ring on the rockers shaft end had come off and the screw adjuster on #3 intake valve had backed off. We put the rocker assembly back into position, put the valve cover back on and re-installed the ignition loom.

    That afternoon I had to start in last place in the Main Event for our Group 2A (see video). When in our rolling start, I saw the leading cars get the Green Flag as I came into Turn 11 (the last turn). I stood on it and accelerated quickly, looking to pass a number of cars before reaching the Flag Station. About 200 feet from the Start Line my engine quit completely! They put out the Yellow Flag, the Tow Truck came out, put me on the Hook and towed me back to my Paddock site. I got out of the car and keeping my helmet and gloves on I opened the hood and pushed the primary lead on the distributor completely in. When replacing the loom I apparently failed to get the lead all the way home (too much in a hurry I guess).

    Attached is the site on YouTube for a video of Saturday's complete race schedule. You can watch it all, or scroll forward to 2A to see our race. Our
    #32 car, of course, is lurking as a solo in the back of "The Pack"



    I'm headed up to Genuine Aircraft Hardware at Paso Robles airport tomorrow to get some all metal lock nuts to secure the adjusters on the rocker arms.
     
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  21. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,192

    johnneilson
    Member

    here is an old pic. Nothing changed externally. I just came back from Bonneville. As usual, tuned myself out of the game with gearing.
    Had decent run, exit of mile 2 at about 158 mph.
    After looking over data, just too tall of gears. That will not happen again.

    J

    IMG_0236.JPG
     
  22. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    Like I said John "more grunt!"
     
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  23. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,145

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

    john , I see the motor did well ! good on you
     
  24. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 2,191

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    IMG_20170828_171900793.jpg

    About a 7" extension out of 3/8" schedule 40 black pipe. It threaded internally just fine. It puts the OD knob by the main transmission shifter so 2nd hi to 3rd low and back can be done by palming the knobs in one hand.

    Sent from my XT1254 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  25. blgitn
    Joined: Sep 13, 2011
    Posts: 109

    blgitn
    Member

  26. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 819

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    Hey folks,
    Started tearing into a banger motor I've had sitting around for 6 years and found some interesting parts inside. Story was the chassis I bought came from Argentina. It has an early oil pan and early front timing cover where the motor bolts directly to the front cross member.

    Beside water, sludge and dinosaur juice I found 4 ring pistons marked Industria Argentina on the tops, Ind Arg marked on the crank pulley and Industria Argentina Plastiversal on the cam gear.

    It also looks like new valve seat had been installed but below the deck and the intake valves are slightly larger than the exhaust.

    Everything seemed nice and smooth, plenty of shims though some home made, decent looking babbit, no slop so I had high hopes. cranks journals pitted, bores have a .010 to .018 taper so no quick cleanup. I guess that explains what I suppose are ring expanders installed behind the rings.

    upload_2017-8-28_21-3-56.jpeg upload_2017-8-28_21-4-45.jpeg upload_2017-8-28_21-6-6.jpeg upload_2017-8-28_21-7-6.jpeg
    upload_2017-8-28_21-18-30.jpeg
     
  27. brjnelson
    Joined: Oct 13, 2002
    Posts: 467

    brjnelson
    Member

    main transmission shifter so 2nd hi to 3rd low and back can be done by palming the knobs in one hand.

    That Is A good way to do it. Brilliant plan, it must cut down on forgetting yer in OD when shifting.
    I will run out and take photo of what I did.
     
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  28. brjnelson
    Joined: Oct 13, 2002
    Posts: 467

    brjnelson
    Member

    [​IMG]. I got the Cable shifter option
    I wish it looked more period Correct[​IMG] OD is when pulled, that should never confuse me when it is engaged, just push in and shift


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  29. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    The one with the large hole in the side is CLASSIC!o_O
     
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  30. I have been using J&E pistons and I have found their tech people to be very helpful. I had 1 set of Egge pistons and, after 15 years on the shelf decided to use them. I balanced them by removing material from the inside of the piston head.
     
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