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Are summit ring & pinion decent?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by TINKERDUKE, Jan 10, 2010.

  1. TINKERDUKE
    Joined: May 13, 2007
    Posts: 76

    TINKERDUKE
    Member
    from England

    Title sums it up really. I am in the market for 3.73:1 ring and pinion for my 10 bolt 8.5 posi axle. Has anyone had any good or bad experiances with summits ring and pinion kits and installation kits? Its for my 55 chevy truck running a mild 350/700r4:D

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-741001/

    Any thought and opinions woukld be great!
     
  2. chubbie
    Joined: Jan 14, 2009
    Posts: 2,318

    chubbie
    Member

    well I'm the only one to respond? OK, a close friend of mine did, G force customs, Algona Iowa 9" 4.56's they couldn't get a good pattern when setting ring & pinion, they got as close as they could and put it together. It didn't run long. he replaced w/ name brand gears and they credited him for the others.

    need to talk to him?
     
  3. hotrod-Linkin
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,382

    hotrod-Linkin
    Member

    on the flip side, i'm running a set on my non hamb 66 bbc chevelle and it's quirt and hasn't let loose yet.
     
  4. If they have what I want, I usually order the plain white box. I have had no trouble with Summits stuff.
     

  5. scottybaccus
    Joined: Mar 13, 2006
    Posts: 4,109

    scottybaccus
    Member

    Don't Shortcut. Pay once. Richmond Gear.
     
  6. Master of None
    Joined: Dec 18, 2009
    Posts: 2,279

    Master of None
    Member

    My friends that race figure 8 races use their mini spools and ring and pinions all the time with no problems.So they tell me... And well there is a reason they don't do circle track their missing some chromosomes.... so you can imagine the abuse they put on their parts. from what i understand they are kinda hit and miss.
     
  7. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 20,591

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I have watched poor quality or poorly setup gears auto-destruct on one pass, or one trail-ride.

    If you get lucky, and you get a good set, then fine. If not, you WILL be doing it twice, buying the good set in the process.

    I am not a gambling man by nature. My monster truck has OEM Dana gears in the front, and Richmond gears in the back. The A has Richmond gears. Money well spent.
     
  8. TINKERDUKE
    Joined: May 13, 2007
    Posts: 76

    TINKERDUKE
    Member
    from England

    Hmmm, Mixed opinions. Think i will stomp up the extra and get a richmond set. Thanks fellas.
     
  9. unclerichard
    Joined: Jun 30, 2005
    Posts: 235

    unclerichard
    Member
    from Michigan

    Another vote for Richmond here. I have installed many sets over the years, none have failed, but had the best patterns with Richmonds.
     
  10. torchmann
    Joined: Feb 26, 2009
    Posts: 787

    torchmann
    BANNED
    from Omaha, Ne

    Whatever you chose, break them in right.
    I havn't ruined a set yet but followed the recommended proceedure.
    The gears are machined then setup in a 90 degree fixture that simulates a rear axle carrier. they are lapped in with an abrasive compound to get a pattern.
    The mnf. stamps the pinion gear with the pinion depth and records the backlash.
    The first thing they setup is the pinion depth. Setting it puts the pinion face exactly where the manufacturer had it off the carrier bearing centerline.
    First thing they check is comparing the carrier bearing cap to the case to ensure the break is dead center of the bearing.
    If not they factor that into the pinion depth measurement.
    Once the pinion depth is set then you go to work on the backlash. This is set by moving the carrier side-to-side in the case with shims between the carrier bearings and the case.
    When doing this it changes the pattern.
    If the backlash is correct as per the manufacturer's spec for that gear set (same as they had when lapping the gears) then the pattern should be the same as they had....
    If they had it setup right when they lapped it.

    The break in goes like this:
    New gears are softer than used ones, they will case harden by work hardening.
    If you don't run them they wont get the moderate pressure needed to harden the teeth faces and if you load them too much they will develop wear from too much pressure and overheating the metal.
    the manufacturers recommend running a few hundred miles starting with short trips at light/mild throttle and not towing anything working up to longer trips on the freeway runnning 55. they don't recommend getting on it hard, towing, or running over 55 for extended periods of time to keep the gear's metal from overheating and ruining the temper and break in.
    This is for brand new street gears.
    I always thought the temperature thing was all about the oil, I never knew about the hardening process they go through after installation.
    Probably just like breaking in a cam I guess.
     
  11. trmel3
    Joined: May 21, 2007
    Posts: 100

    trmel3
    Member
    from new jersey

    wouldnt use richmond they get to much heat treat an are brittle i always use factory gm gear sets as they last longer on the street an yes break in is a must
     
  12. Shifty Shifterton
    Joined: Oct 1, 2006
    Posts: 4,964

    Shifty Shifterton
    Member

    If they'll ship international consider Randy's Ring & Pinion, customer service is unbeatable and pricing is attractive. They'll probably sell you an OEM style gear instead of a performance style gear at that power level, little bit different to setup but ought to be quieter on the road.

    good luck
     
  13. Good information torchmann, makes sense as I read it again several times and made me think! Excellent tech.
     
  14. Jason455
    Joined: Jun 21, 2004
    Posts: 515

    Jason455
    Member

    I used a set of Jeg`s gears, probably the same as summit? I could not get an even pattern on setup. They are a little loud on decel but not bad on accel. Defiantly not top quality.
     
  15. yellow wagon
    Joined: Jun 13, 2007
    Posts: 612

    yellow wagon
    Member
    from WI

    Never had an issue with Richmond gears. Never!
     
  16. TagMan
    Joined: Dec 12, 2002
    Posts: 6,204

    TagMan
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    "New gears are softer than used ones, they will case harden by work hardening.
    If you don't run them they wont get the moderate pressure needed to harden the teeth faces and if you load them too much they will develop wear from too much pressure and overheating the metal."

    What???

    I spent 38 years in the gearing industry, working for the company that manufactures 95% of the machine tools that produce gearing for the automotive, aircraft and other misc industries - cutting, grinding testing, lapping and quench machines. I worked in the shop, Engineering and as a Field Service Rep and never heard that. I wonder why Ford, GM, Honda, etc waste their money heat treating gears? Maybe they could take them straight off the cutting machines and install them in a diff - they could just case harden themselves on the road...........:rolleyes:

    BTW, I've worked at the Richmond Gear plant and they have (or at least used to have) excellent production capabilities and QC controls.
     
  17. Captain Chaos
    Joined: Oct 16, 2009
    Posts: 596

    Captain Chaos
    Member
    from Missery

    The best gear I have setup is Precission Gear from Reider racing . Always my first recomendation, haven't recomended Richmond in a long time .
    Motive gear has been good to us for a less costly option. US gear also
    I refuse to install the plain white box gears anymore , can't take the chance of a customer bad mothing me because of their cheneese ebay crap they brought me .

    As noted again, do a proper break in on them . if your doing it for first time, take your time , be patient with it . GM isn't to bad since carrier shims are on outside . those Dana's can be a pain .
     
  18. 42hotrod
    Joined: Nov 3, 2005
    Posts: 811

    42hotrod
    Member
    from S.E. Idaho

    I know summit buys mostly name brand stuff to rebox. Ignition is a mix of MSD and mallory, Exhaust is typically, dynomax, Paint we now know is kirker, so my point is that these gears are made by a name brand. Not one of the really expensive gear sets, but with some research I'm sure someone could figure it out. The giveaway a lot of the time is the instruction sheets and boxes.


    Second, I always question these break in processes, the majority of them are wives tales. Do you think roundy round guys drive there cars for the first 5 races under light throttle and varying speeds...or how about the 8 second twin turbocharged nova...does he drive his non street legal drag car under very light throttle to work for a week, or does he just make 985 1/4 mile passes under very light throttle and varying speeds??

    My engine machinist told me once you complete the flat tappet cam break in (if you have a flat tappet cam heh), have at it, and drive it like you always will. I follow that principle with pretty much everything and have never had a failure. drive easy and make sure there are no weird noises, then whale on it hard and listen/feel. If its good at that point its "Broken in" in my opnion.


    Scot
     
  19. chevy3755
    Joined: Feb 6, 2006
    Posts: 1,048

    chevy3755
    Member

    never had an issue with anything by Summit.................just my 2 penny s
     
  20. TagMan
    Joined: Dec 12, 2002
    Posts: 6,204

    TagMan
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    "Second, I always question these break in processes, the majority of them are wives tales. "

    Ring & pinion gears found in cars since the early-mid 30's are Hypoid gears, i.e. the pinion center line is offset lower than the ring gear center line. The pinion tooth surface slides against the gear tooth surface which could result in galling of the mating surfaces, which is why the correct gear oils must be used and the gear set has to be set-up correctly. An installation error of a few .001" of an inch can place the load bearing contact point way off the designed load carrying point and create noise, heat, galling and/or catastrophic failure.

    Proper break-in according to mfg's direction IS important to allow the sliding tooth surfaces to completely mate. Think of it as a burnishing operation. No matter how good a gear set is manufactured to theoretical design, there will be some slight (hopefully) mounting inconsistancies. The break-in is designed to negate any slight mounting errors and ensure longevity of the gear set.
     
  21. As a sideline I set up a few rearends for folks, I've always used Richmond in 9" apps.
    Pinion depth is set using a T&D tool, backlash is always set with a dial indicator, preload is set with a torque wrench. I always check tooth pattern.
    The variables I cannot verify are improper break in and abuse.
    Lately two low mile sets have come back totally worn out and howling. I can get the gears replaced but have to eat labor.

    Has anyone had problems with Richmond 9" gears? I've used them for years and thought they were the cats-ass.
    I have noticed they come from India now.
     
  22. TagMan
    Joined: Dec 12, 2002
    Posts: 6,204

    TagMan
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    "New gears are softer than used ones, they will case harden by work hardening."

    With all due respect, that statement is not correct. I spent 38 years working in all facets of the gear manufacturing process, from cutting, testing, quench hardening, lapping installation and quality control. I worked for the machine tool manufacturer that builds the gear equipment used in 98% of the manufacturer's plants and have worked alongside OEM manufacturers as a consultant. I can tell you, "case hardening" a gear tooth by running it in mesh, just doesn't happen. No way, no how!

    Gears & pinions are heated & oil quenched in almost all cases, to approx. 60Rc. That's how they are lapped and intalled in final assembly. Gears sets must be broken in (although, with new technology in fluids, that's not critical any longer - read a new car's owner's manual), any break-in is to let the tooth contact surfaces get an initial wear-in as a set under actual load conditions to prevent tooth surface galling.
     
  23. bulletproof1
    Joined: Feb 23, 2004
    Posts: 2,080

    bulletproof1
    Member
    from tulsa okla

    only time id use a richmond is if was a open header car or big offroad tires.first choice was precision gears, dana/spicer in a dana axle,oem in 8.8 fords or GMs....richmond have a rep for being loud,,,
     
  24. Talking to a Richmond tech that I sent pics of the bad gears, he said the metal was "smeared" or "overheated"...
    Could this be a case of "overloading" the gears before they were broken in, thus causing premature wear?
     
  25. FoxSpeed
    Joined: May 19, 2009
    Posts: 385

    FoxSpeed
    Member
    from NorCal

    I have used summit ring and pinion for 9" ford. No problems and the cars are driven hard.
     
  26. summit gears are by atech .
    they are crap.
    do not buy.
     
  27. Lucky3
    Joined: Dec 9, 2009
    Posts: 652

    Lucky3
    Member

    FYI....Richmond Gear has been sold and is no longer going to mfg gear sets for the general public. Large custom orders only.....Sent them an e-mail to verify.
     
  28. Lucky3
    Joined: Dec 9, 2009
    Posts: 652

    Lucky3
    Member

    Has anyone had problems with Richmond 9" gears? I've used them for years and thought they were the cats-ass.
    I have noticed they come from India now.[/QUOTE]

    I've run Richmond Pro Gears in many a race car from 9 sec to 6 sec cars with no issues at all. Always use high end racing synthetic fluids with excellent life.
    Always use Mark Williams center sections.....no problems !
     
  29. TagMan
    Joined: Dec 12, 2002
    Posts: 6,204

    TagMan
    ALLIANCE MEMBER



    If the gears were overheated, it could be because the contact was out of position, insufficient backlash, poor oil quality, contamination, bearing pre-load, or................ Tough to tell without seeing the gears.
     

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