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Technical ***April 2020 Banger Meet Thread - Shelter in Shop***

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Jiminy, Mar 31, 2020.

  1. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,906

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Nice looking engine.
    You can do the pump work yourself and improve it for your application.
    The B oil pump had a turned down shaft to allow for more flow. You can do that with a Model A shaft.
    The biggest thing that will help the stock pump is to lap the gear cover flat, flat. that and make sure that the gears are the same height and just below the height of the housing. Maybe a half thousandth of an inch. I use gasket maker and seal the cover to the housing without a gasket...the less bypass around the ends the better.
    You can open the inlet to the gears too. Open the outlet. Make sure the outer shield covering the pock up screen, is sealed to the pump body. If it leaks the pump will suck air if it above the oil level.
    This is a pump that I put together with the inlet on the bottom plate, like CAT does their pumps. It has early V8 pump gears, hence the spacer and the relief tapped into the pump. I used a 90 degree street ellbow and the pressure relief is a 35# from McMaster Carr for an air compressor. IMG_20180415_144649922.jpg
    My belief that a higher capacity pump puts more oil thru the engine and into the dipper tray for the rods if you stay dipper. Sustained operating above 3000 - 3500 RPM will empty the tray...can you say overdrive?
     
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  2. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,906

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    As for inserts...
    A little real life experience.
    My Cabriolet has an A engine that is inserted and has welded on counterbalances on the crank.
    It has the block drilled and set up to oil the center main. (a real good idea) Dipper rods.
    I also run the Sterling Damper flywheel. A torsional vibration absorber.
    It has a 7.1:1 Lion head and a burns intake
    It runs real good.
    It broke a front pulley...and I found the knock, Replaced the pulley with a new one. Didn't do anything but replace it and unknown to me the key was boogered, which made the first one break. The second one cracked but did not come apart. I ran it that way for a little while and something just didn't seem right about the engine. I had a B flathead engine I had just gotten together and put it in the car and set the A aside. When I finally tore into it, the cracked front pulley had scooped rope seal material off. That material plugged the pump screen and the engine had been starving for oil. The bearings had just started to leave material on the crank. The crank polished fine and ordered a new set of main and rod bearings. Done. If it was a babbitted engine, not so easy a recovery I suspect.
     
  3. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 3,462

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    I had a buggered key on my crank too. I blamed it on the loose fit of an aftermarket pulley. I have the welded counter weights and my inserts were from a Kabota tractor.
     
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  4. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,049

    johnneilson
    Member

    I have spun two harmonic balancers, breaking the keys on the dyno.
    I no longer use the stock keys and use alloy steel ones.
    Haven't broken one yet but do not run balancers either.

    J
     
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  5. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 343

    railcarmover

    Ive heard that the lube line to center main is suspect as well..the feed port is at the highest oil load point of the bearing..that is true,but if you run a full flow oil filter with the system the center will be 'pressurized' by filter restriction,insuring positive oil flow..at least that is what i tell myself..
     
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  6. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,050

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

    i have had several pulleys brake . ive tried a lot of ways to keep it tight (2 piece) . solution was this pulley ........... steve pulley.jpg















    0
     
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  7. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 3,462

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    Is that Yapp’s?
     
  8. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,050

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

    yes it is . right now i have a new 2 piece on & it is already loose ................... good insurance ........
     
  9. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,049

    johnneilson
    Member

    Dan,
    Made this retainer last night, I like it more than the spring or rod to bottom of pan IMG_1237.jpg
     
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  10. Kiwi 4d
    Joined: Sep 16, 2006
    Posts: 2,682

    Kiwi 4d
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    18DD8A08-DA9A-461F-BEF1-0BCF9E657BBE.jpeg Has any one had issues with this type of adjustable oil pressure relief valve ? My engine guy is very thorough in examining every component to the Nth detail . He was concerned as they are fitted with neoprene seals which are good to 180 degrees, when under load oil could see 230 or 240 , he went to the web site of the seal manufacture and I believe he asked them directly what temperature the seals are designed to run at . I cant get to see it right now as of course it’s lockdown , he was talking about the possibility of fitting a Chrysler 440 external relief and filter. The Chrysler one looks like it belongs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2020
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  11. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,163

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    If that is the unit that Dan Price sells, I am using one. The engine has a broken crank in it now. But not because of the pump. I have not had any issues with it when it was running.

    If you have concerns about it, email Dan and ask. Maybe the seals are made of a material that can withstand higher temps. Maybe they are Viton and not neoprene.

    .
     
  12. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,163

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    Thanks for the picture. Will there be a screen around the pick up?

    You wouldn't want any rocks getting into those pretty gears. ;)

    .
     
  13. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,163

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

  14. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,049

    johnneilson
    Member

    Dan,
    I guess it is unlimited what can be done, even using a dry sump scavenge screen would work.
    I look at it this way, shame on me if there is debris in the motor when assembled.
    And, by the time the chunks get big enough to eat up the pump it will have already been pretty expensive, the pump will be the least of my concerns.

    John
     
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  15. FlyinA
    Joined: May 17, 2017
    Posts: 96

    FlyinA
    Member

    I'll trade ya! I'm down near Fresno if you ever go through here, or vise versa. I've got too many 30/31s but need a 28/29
     
  16. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 343

    railcarmover

    we ever get let out of the box we'll work something out..
     
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  17. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,906

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

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  18. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,050

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

    my v8 pump is on the bottom of pan . no screen , but cross wires to keep big stuff out . since it is on right side , on hard left turns it would cavatate , thus modified with copper 90* fitting to pick up oil when on other side of pan . been working for many years .
     
  19. After near disastrous results with V8 type pumps and an aftermarket pump made by Dan Price; I came up with a solution that lets me run fast and hard, including Hi-G turns. We took a stock B pan and cut off virtually the whole lower half. We isolated the crankcase with a solid horizontal baffle with deflectors taking oil off the thrust side of the crank and into the sump below. In the sump we installed a GM style pick up with vortex shield. In the sump we trap and remove infused air for between 5 and 7 quarts of oil . We figure that because oil will not move up a vertical side by more that 45 degrees; it cannot get back up into the fast spinning crank (thus more power)! A bung is in the lower side of the sump; and a fixture installed to a flexible (aircraft) line to the external single stage pump. The pump is adjustable (I have it set to 60 psi); and is driven by a Gilmer Belt off the nose of the crank. From the pump a line goes to a one quart filter; then to two smaller lines to each end of the engines oil gallery. I must emphasize that using solid lines for oil and fuel in high vibration applications is asking for trouble.
     
  20. GuyW
    Joined: Feb 23, 2007
    Posts: 539

    GuyW
    Member

    Old Dawg: do you have any pics of that pan?
     
  21. This is why I miss the HAMB


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
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  22. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,049

    johnneilson
    Member

    I agree with John, track cars demand more control on the oil and quite frankly, the V8 pump with stk oil drive is asking a lot or it. This motor came back after 5 years of hard use, to get a stroker crank and freshen up. The bearings were perfect.


    IMG_0307 copy.jpg
     
  23. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,050

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

    WOW , my lil motor would be a good starter motor for that .................
     
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  24. I am an idiot, went back and looked. It is not progressive and when I looked at my notes they said on an intake like a Burns where the carbs are far apart, the progressive was not recommended as the one carb can't feed the back intakes as well.
     
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  25. murf 32
    Joined: May 30, 2013
    Posts: 62

    murf 32
    Member

    Here's my banger powered 27 or under powered T. It's only got the 14.9hp engine but it will get me going for now. Still lots do to. I think the timing is off. Lots about timing model As out there. Anyone got any tips for the B . it will tick over but backfires and stalls when I try to rev. thanks in advance. Murf 20200423_161723.jpg
     
  26. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,163

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    I noticed that I was loosing oil pressure when going around long sweeping right hand turns. I couldn't go deeper with my pan because of ground clearance issues. So I went sideways with a bump out on the right side of the stock pan. I also added extensions to the stock pan baffles and added some hinges to allow oil to move when I wanted it to, and keep it around the pump as much as possible. The bump out was made from another pan and added a little more then a quart to the capacity.
     

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  27. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,906

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The B timing cover is different than the A. Did you static time it like the A using the pin in the timing cover?
    Are you running a B or an A dizzy?
    14.9hp should turn the tyres
     
  28. murf 32
    Joined: May 30, 2013
    Posts: 62

    murf 32
    Member

    Hi
    I static timed it. It's a complete engine that came out of my B. I put a new modern type distributor cap on it as it was missing. I'm sure it's just something silly. But annoying. It did seam to run fine when I tested it before putting it on the car. Cheers
     
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  29. poshdbs
    Joined: Feb 28, 2013
    Posts: 41

    poshdbs
    Member

    murf 32, has the condenser failed?
     
  30. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,050

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

    i put swing gates around my pump to help hold the oil near . seems just fine ..........
     
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