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Technical ***April 2019 Banger Meet - No fooling - just 4***

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Jiminy, Mar 31, 2019.

  1. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 108

    railcarmover

    Nice work...I have a B block with 21 crack pins in the deck..it can be done.Ford mechanics fixed cracks with spelter,a mix of bronze and iron filings,they would work it into the crack by hand then hammer it,repeating process over an over till the desired result was achieved..tedious?
     
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  2. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,454

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    IMG_20190420_161144467.jpg I believe that I got this one. This block has been poorly repaired all over. I guess this is 25 pins. The spot to the right was welded and has pin holes from porosity in the weld. I was able to get the surface to tin and filled with 95/5 solder and a soldering iron.

    Sent from my XT1254 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
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  3. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,454

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This area had more weld repair with porosity from trash in the weld. It had a weeping leak. Again I was able to get it to tin and covered with silver bearing solder. I've got some more cracks to figure out how to fix. They are in the adjacent area to a weld. Head scratching required. IMG_20190421_084020841.jpg IMG_20190421_091045933.jpg

    Sent from my XT1254 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  4. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,454

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Interesting, I recall reading about that now that you mention it...yes, tedious to say the least
     
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  5. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,454

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  6. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 6,744

    noboD
    Member

    Good work. I am amazed someone could sell this to you without saying something and sleep at night. I hope it is worth your effort.
     
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  7. G Baese
    Joined: Jul 30, 2013
    Posts: 17

    G Baese
    Member

    Bitchin' Stitchin' Larry!
     
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  8. callcoy
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 125

    callcoy
    Member
    from Nashville

    Winduptoy

    I have used this method when repairing a block with freeze cracks, like maybe what yours is, I "v" out the crack after I have drilled a 1/8th" or so hole at each end of the crack and use JB Weld. Usually I have the block on an engine stand so I can position the block to keep the epoxy from running out. You didn't mention if you are running a pressurized cooling system, if not you only have to fight gravity. The crack under the lip of the block at the end of that crack can be "v'd" out, you can apply the JB Weld to the area and quickly apply duct tape over the material to hold it in place while it kicks off.

    I have used this material on the blown alcohol RED, one of my MB's engine deck with success. I have a overhead conversion I am doing on a "B" block, where I am bonding a plate to the deck so I can mount a modern OHV head to the block, we will see how it works. I use a 3M product to bond replacement panels to vintage bodies with great success. All of the car manufacturer's use a form of the 3M product to assemble your new car. Major portions of the Boeing 787 and the whole tail assembly of the A-380 is held together with a version of the material. Epoxy will cure out under water so it will hold in your "B" block.
     
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  9. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 108

    railcarmover


    We use epoxies in heavy equipment repair,the best I've used is belzona,it handles high load,and is machinable.deals with heat as well. That is some spot on pin work brother,I'd clear coat it so I could show it off..bangers are all about the skills of the builder
     
  10. callcoy
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 125

    callcoy
    Member
    from Nashville

    Winduptoy

    I forgot to mention that when I pin a block or head I clean out the scale and rust by circulating 100% pure white vinegar thru the block for a minimum, of 24 hours. Then flush it out completely and pump in a ceramic material used by the block and head repair industry, you will have to google it, I don't have the name with me here on the west coast. If you need this and can not locate it, email me and when I am near a computer I will find it. You will have to heat up the block with heat lamps and keep it hot for 24 hr's while you maintain 5-10 psi in the block. Follow the instructions that they recommend, the shops use this stuff to do a good leak free repair.
     
  11. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,454

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Thanks for the feedback...
    Yes, I am leaning that way on this one. It is some really, really thin material. I've got some product that I've used at work for temporary fixes on medium pressure/temperature heat exchangers that wound up being more permanent. I'm thinking that I may sandwich a 2 part epoxy between some 26ga sheet metal and the block. I was messing with some 2 part repair putty that I put on a small part of the area. I'm going to let it set up and then try to take off.. It may become a combination of things.
    Yes, I am running this with a 4lb pressure cap . It helps at the 5000 to 7000' elevation I live at.
    Let us know about your experiment with your plate bonding.
     
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  12. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,454

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    RCM..
    I'm leaning that way on this repair. I couldn't bring myself to do that on the side of the block. I'm still going to try to make it look like is hasn't been repaired but I'll be happy for a leak free save of the block...added bonus that I didn't have to dismantle to repair. I use epoxies and two part products routinely for customer machine repairs so I'm a believer.
    Thanks for the kind words about the stitching job. The fellow that showed me how, put bread on this table by doing this kind of work every day.
     
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  13. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,454

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Callcoy,
    I'll keep that in mind. I cleaned the tapped area with fast evaporating solvent....well OK starting fluid.
    Then used the Locktite primer and Locktite on the threads. I'm going to pressure test and hope for plain old dumb luck.
    On a side note, when we clean customers abused, rusted, scaled heat exchangers we use a buffered acid that is a Calgon product. It will clean a block internally, right now, like new and the buffering agents keep it from working on the clean metal. Got to wear all the PPE, fume respirator and have a diaphragm acid pump so vinegar is probably a good alternative for home and hobby use.
     
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  14. Big John M
    Joined: Aug 29, 2008
    Posts: 26

    Big John M
    Member
    from New York

    @Big John M Nice. Why not go with the bearing inserts instead of the babbit?

    Call me crazy but just wanted to do one traditional plus it's tough to find someone around here willing to do these old engines, I drove 3 hours one way for a reputable Babbitt guy..
     
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  15. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 501

    lake_harley
    Member

    With all the crack repair discussion I'll throw in a question. I have an A block that's cracked from down in the center two exhaust ports, over the valve seats, across the deck and at least a bit down into those two cylinders. Seems to me that the repair that would have the best chance of working would be to have it properly welded, including a thorough pre-heat, welding by whatever method people use who do this kind of repair use, and then a proper, slow cool-down. My understanding is it's almost a black art to do it properly. Even then, it's been suggested to me that the two cylinders should then be sleeved.

    I don't know what temp on a pre-heat the Babbitt on the mains could take before they'd have to be re-poured or spend the money to go to insert mains. Once it would get to that point I question if it would even be worth the effort and expense to save the block. Maybe it would better to let it serve a useful purpose as the base of a glass-top coffee table?

    Considering the particular A block I have in mind, it's a shame to not be able to re-use it other than it having the cracks. The cylinders are in good enough shape that a good cross-hone would have them ready to use, and the Babbitt is good enough that the mains could be shimmed to good clearance.

    I've heard of a fellow who's about 3 hours away, but haven't called him yet. Has anyone had success on a problem similar to mine?

    Thanks.

    Lynn
     
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  16. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,454

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Lynn,
    Isn't that the way, the one with good cylinder bores and Babbitt, is cracked. The preheat required to torch weld is going to melt the Babbitt.
    Larry

    Sent from my XT1254 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  17. klawockvet
    Joined: May 1, 2012
    Posts: 281

    klawockvet
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Burl:
    Whats the brake pedal you are using? The pad is different from the clutch pad. Also, if you compare yours to mine the tab for the pushrod looks like it came off the bottom originally. Mine was an early 28 and was butchered when I got it. The original brake linkage was on the top and required a fabricated bellcrank to change the direction for the master cylinder. Yours is a lot nicer than what I have. I always thought all Model A pedals were the same but I learn something new every day.
     
  18. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 501

    lake_harley
    Member

    That's what I expected. Was the info correct that even with a welded repair that those cylinders would have to be sleeved? I expect that would be the case since it's unlikely that the weld hardness and the casting would wear evenly and eventually cause problems; possibly even if it were taken to the next overbore size....in this case to +.100"? I guess the sleeved cylinders could be taken back to +.080". Knowing that if the welded repair didn't "work" that I'd end up having thrown money down a hole.

    Lynn
     
  19. callcoy
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 125

    callcoy
    Member
    from Nashville

    Lynn;
    That is a tough one, not seeing it don't bank on what I will say, but with a crack, if I read correctly into the exhaust ports may put you out of business. I have one back at home base that has a crack inside the #4 exhaust valve from the cylinder bore to the back of the block, never seen one like this before. Because I didn' t have time to build it so I had a builder do it with his block 5000 miles ago. It is an inserted engine so I want to salvage it, I will have a sleeve installed ( I can't do that) then lock stitch it and deck it, cremiseal, then pressure test.

    Tomorrow I hope to deal on another inserted engine by another builder that was sleeved in all bores but had the deck repaired. The deck repair failed, it was redone and it failed. I hate to see it scrapped, I can use it for a low HP overhead ( 3 main ) touring engine and save it. I collect blocks and etc, when I am out here, ship back and put them on the shelf.

    Your block present's a problem, that crack location scares me and even if it can be stitched, you will still have to sleeve two bores and deck the block plus install two seats. That is a lot of machine work, I wouldn't even attempt that unless it was a Donovan Model D. You may be best off with the other block, but please consider pressure test it before you spend any more time or money. Good A blocks are getting hard to obtain, B blocks are all most impossible !
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
  20. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 501

    lake_harley
    Member

    The good news is I have acquired what appears to be a good block, but because of one cylinder being slightly too big to use my old engine's nice +.080" pistons it will have to be bored to +.100". The Babbitt is in terrible condition so it'll have to be redone or converted to inserts. For now I'm holding off doing anything but it's nice to know what I'm up against once I get my current project on the road and can consider another.

    Thanks, gentlemen!

    Lynn
     
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  21. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 108

    railcarmover

    [​IMG]

    Put fire to the engine...its in front of an A trans and a mitchell,3.78 rear.Took a bit to figure out how to drive it,when and if to split the mitchell running through the gear set.Turns out the best is to leave it in high range,I have enough grunt to pull first gear easy. Went back in, checked valve adjustment and buttoned it up for now,after two years the chassis is done,I blasted and epoxy primed the body last year,a little filler and paint,should have it back on the rails by end of summer.its kind of bittersweet when you can see the end of a project..
     
  22. burl
    Joined: Nov 28, 2007
    Posts: 543

    burl
    Member
    from Minnesota

    Just a stock model a pedal I sanded down to give more clearance around the steering column.
     
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  23. Would anyone well versed in Model A Bangers be willing to correspond with me in conversation or text to assist me in getting my banger checked out and running? Someone kinda local would be a HUGE plus (eastern NC) but not necessary.

    I need advice on checking engine condition, simplest carburetor (Zenith, Tilotson, Ford/Holley 94), distributor (stock, Mallory), order of progression, etc...

    I have a couple books, and I will reference these as well, but "voice commands" from experts leave little error in translation.

    Thanks all!
     
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  24. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 108

    railcarmover

    I don't care if it rains or freezes
    as long as I've got my plastic Jesus
    sitting on the dashboard of my car
    it comes in colors pink and pleasant
    it glows in the dark cause it's iridescent
    I'll take it with me whenever I go far
    so give me my lady Madonna
    dressed in rhinestones and sitting on a
    pedestal of abalone shells
    driving 90 but I'm not scared
    'cause I've got my Virgin Mary
    assuring me that I will never go to hell

    [​IMG]
     
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  25. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,454

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    IMG_20190425_143958.jpg IMG_20190424_133717200.jpg IMG_20190424_133717200.jpg
    Lightweight on top...22 lbs
    Midweight in middle 33 lbs
    Heavy on bottom 64 lbs



    Sent from my XT1254 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  26. G Baese
    Joined: Jul 30, 2013
    Posts: 17

    G Baese
    Member

    If I get hit by a bus or truck, plastic Jesus don't give a darn,
    ridin' on the dash board of my car.
     
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  27. Are these the flywheels Yapp talked about? They look nice, only concern I see is if you bust a tooth is the flywheel fixable.
     
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  28. Dustyp489
    Joined: Feb 1, 2008
    Posts: 84

    Dustyp489
    Member

    I had mine turned down and only got it the 36 pounds when they waited after balancing it. I'm running the V8 clutch with the S10 T5 setup
     
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  29. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,454

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Yes, they are the flywheels that Yapp talked about. The teeth for the starter are integral with the flywheel. I've, in the 45+ years I've been messing with Model A's, never replaced a ring gear that didn't come to me messed up. I was discussing this with my buddy and it would be rotate the flywheel to a different position IF there was something to happen. I've been running a 33# one on my Model A engine and it changed its complexion substantially
    I will have some of each for sale at Dirt Drags.
     
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  30. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,454

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    These are set up for V8 clutch. I believe the V8 clutch was the one thing I did that made my Model A Bangers more driveable than anything else. T-5 is up there too
     
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