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Technical Anyone? ~ DynaBeads ~ How many ounces do you run in your bias ply Firestone's?

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by modified, Sep 2, 2018.

  1. Elcohaulic
    Joined: Dec 27, 2017
    Posts: 2,480

    Elcohaulic
    Member

    Balance the wheels of the lug holes. That method made a big difference on my Wheel Vintiques Series 64 wheels!!

    I tried balance beads, every time I hit a bump or bridge expansion joint it would disrupt the beads and the wheels would shake.. They didn't work for me, replacing the after market wheels with a set of stock GM wheels along with a new set of Cooper tires did the trick....
     
    46international and modified like this.
  2. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 21,210

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I guess balancing is a form of bandaid no matter which method you choose and road conditions do affect the bandaid provided. That has certainly been mentioned by many including myself. Some road conditions damage modern systems how can we expect our vintage setups to fair any better. It makes me chuckle...I was on dirt roads recently that were way smoother than many of the paved highways I drive on.

    The beads have shortcomings. But to me so far the positives far outweigh the negative. I just worry about adding these beads to near unacceptable unbalanced tires when the Bead company is saying it may be of benefit to have both.

    My experience was the spin and roadforce improved but did not eliminate all the problems...adding beads made it not perfect but much more acceptable with the weight still on.

    So what I'm saying is standard or roadforce balance before as they say you can't balance after beads are in...sorry long winded.
     
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  3. After grinding the tire down I went for a ride and it was just as bad or worse so I got new Firestone's. Now I'm thinking that it was just flat spotting. These tires run true, that is until they start bouncing. But the old tires ran true after grinding them, just did not fix my problem. Like I said before, I'm going to look into tire pressure and the shocks. What pressure do you run? I see Modified runs 22 psi, I was hoping to hear he was running higher than that. I'm at 25 now and was thinking more pressure would reduce the flat spot. What do you think?
    Oh, about the rim holes not centering, before mounting the new tires I mounted the rim on the hub and checked run out. Up and down was not too bad I did have some side to side movement that I had to 'correct" with a hammer/ big adjustable wrench.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
    Stogy and modified like this.
  4. Bottom line is, I think my problem is mostly just the tire flat spotting. After driving for a while it rides fine, not the best but good enough for what it is. I just don't know what I will do about the problem with cold tires.

    Have we given any thought to shocks? what type of shock is on a '40 Ford? are they tube shocks? How stiff are they? People with stock cars or at least stock front ends don't have this problem do they?
     
  5. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 326

    modified
    Member

    This is still a work in progress for me too so we will keep sharing ideas!

    Sent from my SM-N900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  6. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 7,154

    BJR
    Member

    Correct me if I am wrong. You did not balance the tires/wheels after shaving, correct? From what I have read they say to balance after shaving, then add beads. This makes sense to me as you want to get the tire/wheel as close to balanced and if it still bounces, then add the beads to balance the other rotating parts not already balanced. Such as brake drums, rotors, etc. If you did balance after shaving, my apologies as I missed it.
     
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  7. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 21,210

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    If your Firestones are new get a roadforce balance look at the printout if its garbage...exercise warranty...problem is you have the beads in already.

    Doctor Terry said with a roadforce printout he was given replacements. Racer-x also replaced under warranty.

    When you have warranty use it many of us don't.

    Flat spots...My Hotrod sits in the garage I hop in and drive I don't know if flat spots have a had an effect worthy of conversation. I had it also all winter on those metal 4 wheeled rollers which actually left two indentations in each tire after jacking it up off them in late spring prior to driving.

    Did you try rotating the wheel position on the hub? Switch sides and try.

    I seriously think we all should give tire/wheel combos a spin/roadforce balance first to determine if the tire is even balancable. Sorry long winded again. One must remember it's easier to peel or pry weights off than get beads out.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
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  8. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 21,210

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

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  9. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 326

    modified
    Member

    I did not balance after shaving, I was hoping the DynaBeads would balance the whole rotating assembly! It is better but I think I need a couple more ounces of beads that I just ordered.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  10. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 21,210

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Since you went with someone who is quite familiar with these balance methods you should take him out to get a handle on this to see what he feels is going on. Its sounds quite easy to pinpoint.
     
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  11. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 326

    modified
    Member

    I did, he says I need a couple ounces more of beads! He says "Aim High!"

    Sent from my SM-N900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  12. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 21,210

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    My situation is very interesting I was out a couple of hours ago and I find I get out and accelerate on the 50 mph Highway and look down at the speedometer and it says near 60 mph it's that gotta be careful because you think you're going slower.

    That's the feeling you get with a newer better riding vehicle.
     
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  13. I think that some of you are expecting the beads to solve all of your problems. Once you have the shock rate solved then you can move on to other stuff. The wrong shock will not be solved by beads. The beads will not impact flat spot thump--it's there and only heat and driving will fix that.

    The other thing to consider is that these older cars will not handle or drive like your new Honda. They are 50-60 year old cars and you simply cannot expect that they feel, ride, and handle like the new stuff.
     
  14. Just for information, balancing with road force is no different then balancing alone, the road force is a diagnostic tool to pin point a “heavy” spot in the tire. Definitely helps in finding problems but the balancing process is exactly the same.


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
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  15. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 21,210

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This is all true...and you highlight just how many angles that can be converging to effect the end result. I have hit a few nails on the head and the beads were part of the improvement and I have eluded I still have a horse drawn wagon with an engine in it...and that I do not expect to nor do I try to eliminate.
     
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  16. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 21,210

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    They are two different machines are they not and huge differences in cost as well...to call these systems the same is really not true as they offer different types of balance or is it more precise.
     
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  17. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 21,210

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I had tires balanced that were balanced on a conventional spin balancer and the tires did not perform well they tried one more conventional balance and I then had them roadforce balanced after putting up with them not performing well and it was determined to be a poor tire and let's say I ended up with the garbage tire and nothing but denial and spewing from the original place. Never went back either. I don't have much luck with service...pay good money and get substandard product and resistance to replace garbage when it doesn't perform.

    The roadforce balance did improve my Bia Ply performance. I also was told one of the pair was not going to be ever perfect but was adjusted to run as best as it could. Then fast forward and 4 ounces of beads were added with roadforce weighting still intact. Noticable and the best improvement to date.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
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  18. Well, all I can say is the car is not drive able at 40mph when the tires are cold but after they warm up it is ok. I removed the front shocks last night and "tested them" pulled and pushed them in and out. They seem to work. I did some research on the internet today and I think it was the tire rack site that said to reduce tire flat spots increase air pressure. Some other forum site had a thread that someone said to increase pressure also. This weekend I will go up to 35 psi and try that. The only thing is, I will have to put more air in drive it then park it overnight and drive it the next day to see if it is better.
     
    modified likes this.
  19. You are so right about this. Shock rate may be the thing here but how do I determine correct shock rate? I'm running the short "hot rod" shocks from speedway, who knows if they are right.
     
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  20. Yes if a little is good more will be better!!
    But to be honest, I think you have a different problem than me, My problem goes away after 8 miles or so.
     
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  21. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 326

    modified
    Member

    Yeah, I don't think I have a flat spotting problem!
    I have a 92 year old car with homemade chassis and suspension made of antique parts with bias ply tires trying to go 75 miles per hour and expecting it to drive like a new car!
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
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  22. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 7,154

    BJR
    Member

    I think that was a mistake. I would try to get as close with conventional balancing methods, and then add the beads to fine tune things. We have all read that the beads do not work at low speeds, so having lots of beads in the tire instead of getting close with conventional balancing first, makes it even worse at low speeds. Plus if balanced first it takes way less beads to fine tune the assembly.
     
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  23. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 21,210

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I have a fenderless...:confused:...oops...half genderless...:D...Model A Sport Coupe which is a fairly light Hotrod. The 327 however puts some downward pressure on the fronts.

    Modified's Hotrod is also a lightweight.

    International you have a truck that is probably more weighty which may add to flatspotting but I ask you are these tires applicable for warranty returns.

    This is of course complicated by the addition of beads...making an unbalancable tire diagnosis more difficult.

    Here's another possible problematic scenario...Is there a chance there is moisture within your tubes causing clumping of the beads...I believe both Modified and myself are running one brand and you another...not that it has any relevance just an observation. It could be climate and say your air input into the tube was moisture laden.

    Your brand says moisture has no effect due to the material makeup of the product.

    In another topic it goes on to say that actions from tire reaction to road surface, unbalance and centrifugal force all work together to position the beads within.

    I have felt the imbalance at lower speed that quickly disappears and smooths as speed increases.

    Isn't 30 psi the max for the tires?
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
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  24. I would opine that an overly liberal slathering of the material used to make for slippery non-friction tire mounting would cause problems. The real tire store stuff is supposed to dry quickly but who knows what they use.

    So if you have a wet, sticky clump of beads glued together or glued to the bottom of the tire then you would have balancing issues.
     
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  25. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 21,210

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I think he is running tubes but he will no doubt confirm that. The flat spot thing sounds quite pronounced and happens daily overnight...I thought these develop over months of sitting...

    He said it goes away and these are new Firestones.

    As much of a pain in the ass it is I would remove tube with beads put another and spin balance to determine if they are in fact good or returns.

    At that time it would be good to have a very good look at the rims themselves...as well for true as it was mentioned they had some issues...
     
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  26. sr
    Joined: Feb 12, 2007
    Posts: 400

    sr
    Member
    from Monterey

    Wow I must be lucky. I have not had these problems with tires. I did however have a serious bounce problem when I had a shock break on the high way. The car was very unsafe. II could not believe how much the front end moved without a shock in place. I fixed shock. Fixed problem. If it were me, I would play with shocks. It sounds like you have done a lot with the tires. Just a thought.
     
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  27. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 21,210

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    For the average Joe its frustrating and time consuming and can be expensive. To have a shop do it it can be the same...and I did have worn out shocks...that helped too. I can understand wanting to find the problem on your own. Are you running Bias @sr?

    And your avatar is a pretty cool historical inspiration
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
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  28. Not a truck, it's a '30 Two door sedan, but has a truck motor, a 292 Y block. (well, heavy like a truck motor) I guess I could return the tires but I don't think the tires are the problem as all these tires flat-spot. I don't know if it will be that bad just overnight but it is bad when they sit a week.
    Moisture sticking the beads, well maybe it was very humid when I refilled the tires. And yes I run tubes. but I had this same problem when using lead wheel weights. I don't have to do any yard work tonight so I will add some pressure when I get home, we'll see what happens over the weekend if it does not rain. and yes, 32 is the max they recommend.
     
    Stogy likes this.
  29. You are so right, I would like to know more about shock rate, lonejackharry said something about shock rate also. If I had more information on specifying shock rate I may get somewhere.
    Thanks
     
  30. Wow, I think I have completely stolen "modified's" thread, sorry.
     
    brEad and modified like this.

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