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Technical Anyone? ~ DynaBeads ~ How many ounces do you run in your bias ply Firestone's?

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by modified, Sep 2, 2018.

  1. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 315

    modified
    Member

    Last week I did a post about tire shaving which helped quite a bit!
    I have tried DynaBeads for the 1st time and they also seem to help but I'm not sure how many ounces to run.
    On the front I have 4.50-4.75/16 Coker Firestone bias ply on '35 Ford wires on '40 Ford (Speedway) drums.
    On the rear, 6.50/16 '35 Ford wires widened 2" on Speedway '40 Ford drums.
    I have 3 ounces of beads in each front tire and 5 ounces in each rear tire.
    The fronts do well till about 65mph+ as well as the rears but at lower speeds I get a choppy little bounce in the rear.
    I think Maybe I need to add more beads! I went with what Innovative Balancing suggested.
    How many ounces do you guys find works for you? 20180827_174909.jpeg 20180902_120604.jpeg 20180902_120647.jpeg tempFile_2018-08-09-14-56-27.jpeg

    Sent from my SM-N900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
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  2. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 7,950

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    20180902_153156.jpg
    I have 4 ounces in each front tire with hammer on lead weight still attached. This has been mentioned with beads until centrifical forced throws them into position there is a mass which may affect your low speed driving. I'm talking 0 to 15 mph for example. I think I feel this but it's a tradeoff I guess.

    Did you spin balance with beads as I have not done so. Technically it should be perfect. A spin balance may show low speed imbalance. The FAQ on the bead site did say you may have to add more. Talk to your shave Mechanic. They work with beading. Personally myself the visible hammer weight doesn't bother me. I just want things to be the best they can.

    It may also be your shocks. Perhaps you can make a tool that you can wrench them up a notch.

    Just thinking out loud in a mechanical way.

    I'm running 26 psi by the way...
     
    modified likes this.
  3. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 315

    modified
    Member

    I think I may need to add more beads.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    46international likes this.
  4. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 7,950

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    @modified thinking about the style of shock you have. Perhaps other types of friction materials may provide better results because dampening of surface effects is all part of the big equation. I'm sure you can have too tight as well. Are those custom made shocks or are parts available?
     
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  5. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 7,950

    Stogy
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    Please I must emphasize stay away from things with asbestos and other toxic crap if you can...when considering tensioning materials as a lot of clutch and brake stuff has in the past contained it.

    I remember an older fella at a cruise with lakes pipes on a flathead and it sounded great so later on when he was parked and settled in I asked about his baffling he said he used a gutted glasspack and packed asbestos around it because it was better than fiberglass...:eek:

    We gotta be aware...
     
  6. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 315

    modified
    Member

    They are Offenhauser shocks from Speedway Motors.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  7. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 7,950

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    @modified the antique tire chart says...
    650/16 _4 Ounces not 5...was that a recommendation...perhaps there is too much.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
    modified likes this.
  8. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 7,950

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I asked if you spin balanced with beads...then I read this...in FAQ

    Can I put the tire on a balancer to see if it's working?

    A: No. Dyna Beads operates on physics principles, and requires the tire assembly to be in motion against a road surface to detect the exact counterbalance position. An electronic balancer has a solid, fixed mount, and does not allow the tire to react to imbalance.

    At what speed do the beads start to work?

    A: The balancing principle is based on centrifigal force, and enough force is developed to keep the beads in position at approximately 25 - 35 MPH, but the exact speed is dependant upon tire diameter.

    A: Motorcycles, scooters, Yes. Most other vehicles, no. Many of our car and SUV customers have found that the addition of 2 - 3 ounces per tire in conjunction with their wheel weights makes the vehicle ride much smoother than before, increases tire mileage, and eliminates most future balancing requirements. The typical application for this is Mercedes, Porsche, BMW's, Corvettes, etc, but can be applied to most any car, SUV or minivan.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
    46international and modified like this.
  9. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 7,950

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    @modified here is some interesting info...I notice your front tire size and mine is not in the chart as they may be considered low profile by their standard...

    Yours...4.75 x 16
    Mine...5.50 x 16

    ...see quoted text below...

    If you have low-profile tires, that being any tire with an aspect ratio 65 or below,
    you may have balancing issues that precludes using Dyna Beads as the sole
    balancing method.
    Our official policy is that we do not advise using Dyna Beads in any car, truck or
    SUV tire with an aspect ratio 65 or below unless used in conjunction with
    weights.
    The reason for this is that this type of tire has a higher incidence of lateral
    imbalance, which is basically that one side of the tire is heavier than the other side,
    creating a “wobbling” effect, or “shaking” of the steering wheel. This type of
    imbalance can only be corrected by careful placement of traditional weights on the
    wheel rim.
    That being said, the physics principle of how Dyna Beads functions is still the
    same, and the addition of a Maintenance amount will usually* smooth out the ride,
    add additional tire mileage, and reduce, if not eliminate, any future rebalancing
    issues.
    Maintenance levels:
    13” to 14” - 2oz per tire.
    15” to 16” - 3 oz per tire
    17” to 18” - 4 oz per tire
    20” - 5 oz per tire
    22” to 26 - 6 oz per tire
    * While Maintenance levels have been very successful with customers, there are too many variables for
    us to accurately predict its success in a particular vehicle/tire type, and so we offer no assurance or
    guarantee using this method on your vehicle.

    So they say a maintenance level in your fronts is 3 ounces...but they also say it perhaps should be spin balanced and weighted before bead install due to its smaller size. You took your weights off before and they say you can't spin balance with beads in.

    So a bit to digest here...

    There is no FAQ for bead removal from tubes if neccessary.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
    46international and modified like this.
  10. I think what they are talking about is the tire width, with a wider tire, the 65 ratio and wider, you get into an imbalance issue side to side of the tire. This is something the beads can't fix as there is nothing to push the beads to the light side. With our 550x16 tires, they are narrow enough not to have that problem. At least that is what I hope, I just put the beads in my front tires and can't wait to see how it works. My fronts are 550x16.
     
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  11. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 315

    modified
    Member

    I talked with Joe from Innovative Balancing and 3 front and 5 rears is what we decided on. I think they need more but I will discuss it with him first!

    Sent from my SM-N900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  12. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 315

    modified
    Member

    46international how many ounces of beads did you use?

    Sent from my SM-N900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  13. well, they said to use 4 oz for a 550x16 tire but if the tire in question needed more than 4 oz of lead weights on the rim, i would think you would need more than 4 oz of beads. I have not tried it out yet, guess I will today it is hot and nasty out today so not looking forward to getting out there.
     
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  14. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 315

    modified
    Member

    Let me hear of your results!
     
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  15. I don't see what it would hurt to put more in, as long as you don't go crazy. I would think their recommend amount is an average of what it should take. And I don't know if these companies are all up to snuff on the bias tire problems. Do they do research on what is needed for the bias tire? I surely don't know, they may just say a tire of that size (or close to it) should balance with 4 oz.
     
    modified likes this.
  16. Oh, I will let you and stogy know what happens....... there are so many threads on the HAMB on this topic we really should make one thread for all of this to keep it all together.

    You know, one other thought, we never hear of this problem with a stock '39 Ford or a stock '36 Ford do we? I think what the real problem is that when we build a hot rod we build in some mistakes, mistakes that make the front end more prone to this problem. I have read a lot of the "death wobble" threads and what I have is not the death wobble. It is tire bounce. The tire just goes up and down, not side to side.
     
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  17. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 7,950

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Duplication happens...what I like to do is make a post within say...this thread a copy of all the links and paste them to make it easier to find them all.
     
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  18. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 315

    modified
    Member

    I agree with you! A buddy of mine who has run DynaBeads only in everything he owns as well as his customers cars says the beads are going to work unless of course you pack the in and they can't move!
    (You would have to second mortgage the house for that many!)
    He thinks 6 ounces in the fronts and 8 ounces in the rears should work for me and he knows the bias ply/tube, wire wheel problems from experience.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  19. I tell you, the one thing I have learned with this is, not all inner tubes are created equal! one side took well over an hour to get the 4 oz in, other side 15 min at most. One had a bigger hole through the valve stem.
    Oh, what brand are yo using? I got mine from Counteract they have kits on amazon for $26 comes with four 4 oz bags of beads the install kit (plastic bottle and tube) new valve cores and modern looking caps that go in the trash. The beads look like they are glass.
     
    modified likes this.
  20. OK, so let us know how that works! I have two more packs that I can put in if needed.
     
  21. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 7,950

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I was out last night again and entire range from 0-65mph has improved...I'm a happy camper.

    I used Dynabeads proper and they are whitish. 4 ounces per front tire.
     
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  22. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 315

    modified
    Member

    Yes I agree with your statement and I also have a bounce not the death wobble!
     
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  23. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 8,667

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    You guys should consider trying to get your tires with beads tested out on a Hunter road force balancing machine.

    I have 16” excelsior radials that I had balanced on the Hunter road force and they required no weights at all for the front and the rears have about 3 ounces.

    I have a few bags of beads to use if I have any issues once I get on the road.

    It would be interesting to see how your tires with the beads ran out on the Hunter machine.
     
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  24. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 315

    modified
    Member

    I used 3 ounces in my fronts and I don't think it's enough.
     
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  25. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 7,950

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I did have a regular spin and roadforce done. One of the two tires was at the threshold of acceptability.

    I actually put 4 ounces in each and am running with the roadforce installed weighting and I'm pretty impressed.

    My backs have not been spin or RF balanced and have no beads in yet but again marked improvement from 0-70mph.

    @Blue One it said in the FAQ you couldn't spin balance after beads were in...maybe you can...you know that saying about rules...:D
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  26. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 315

    modified
    Member

    I am using DynaBeads white ceramic and was told by the company some tubes require the stem be drilled with 1/8" bit, that's what I did then used an engraving tool to vibrate them in. went fast!
     
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  27. OK so I'm just back from a ride, NOT GOOD at all.... at first. about 45 or so the front end was bouncing all over the place but after about 10 min of driving it got better and better. Almost to the point that it would be good.
    This is kind of what happened a couple of weeks ago, I went out to try out my new tires and it was bouncing real bad, went back to the house and adjusted the toe-in and it was a lot better. Next time I went out, after a week or so, it was bouncing again.
    So, is what I have here just a flat-spot problem? If so what can I do? right now I'm running 25psi because some here have said less pressure may keep it from bouncing so much. (like a basketball)
    What pressure do you all run? more pressure better or worse? I would think with more pressure I would have less of a flat spot. But would that make more of a basketball effect? Guess I could just drive slow until the tires get warmed up, don't know how that will work in the winter.
    After the tire pressure idea, the only thing I have left would be the shocks, they have about 7K miles on them so I can't see that they are worn out but I can look into it. I have the same shocks on the rear and the rear is so stiff that they don't move much at all so I could just swap with them.
    How stiff were the old '39 - '40 front shocks? just wondering if they are stiffer than these "hot rod" tube shocks.
     
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  28. modified
    Joined: Sep 21, 2006
    Posts: 315

    modified
    Member

    Hummm......I was hoping for better results as you were!
    My Modified only weighs 1560 lbs.
    It seems the sweet spot pressure wise is 22 lbs. In the fronts, I'm not sure about the rears but I'm running 20 lbs. and still experiencing.
    For flat spotting I think all you can do is drive it till the tires warm up,
    or park it on jack stands but that's a pain in the ass!

    Sent from my SM-N900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
    46international likes this.
  29. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 7,950

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    @46international you did lose a tire to grinding correct? Where did the new tire come from? Is it a Firestone Champion? Is there a chance your rim holes are worn to the point it's not self centering?
     
    46international and modified like this.

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