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Technical another over heating issue

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Karl M, Jul 19, 2017.

  1. Karl M
    Joined: Jul 19, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Karl M

    I posted this in the new guy spot by accident, so here it is....Well I have been reading lots of posts on over heating. Here is my issue. I have a 350 in a 1959 Willys wagon, installed by the previous owner. It is over heating bad! What I have done..Flushed the system with H2o and vinegar, replaced the water pump, replaced the thermostat with a 165 degree one, it has a fan shroud, it has an electric push fan on the front of the radiator and a trany cooler, also the mechanical fan off the water pump, new hoses, new antifreeze, the radiator is a four core copper one, pressure tested the radiator and back flushed-good flow , Pulled the thermostat out, I can see movement of fluid in the top of the radiator with cap off. I drive about five miles and the temp goes to 230 degrees. I reset the timing to 0 degrees, it was at 16 advanced. Still over heats bad.
    Should I now assume the water jackets are clogged, vehicle sat for eight years... Should I run some CLR through it ...? Motor does run strong. Any ideas or help would be great!
     
    joeoldsrocket and ahewetson like this.
  2. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,988

    squirrel
    Member

    hi...first thing, the timing probably wants to be at 16 degrees, but we can't really tell because there are a lot of variables with ignition timing. Generally if it's at zero at idle, it will run hotter. Good ballpark setting is around 34 degrees at 3000 rpm, with the vacuum disconnected.

    Pictures will be necessary for us to help you figure out what's wrong. Take several, put them in this thread. If you have trouble doing that, we can help you figure it out, first. hint: there's an "upload a file" button below where you type in text, and also the image files can't be huge, only good sized, so set the image resolution on your camera/phone to medium, instead of huge, before taking the pictures.
     
    6inarow likes this.
  3. I'm with Jim,the photo's will help us help you. HRP
     
  4. Sheep Dip
    Joined: Dec 29, 2010
    Posts: 1,572

    Sheep Dip
    Member
    from Central Ca

    Compression test........could be a blown/leaky head gasket
     
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  5. Karl M
    Joined: Jul 19, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Karl M

    Great, I'll put the timing back and take some pictures tonight. The timing change I did, did not change the over heating problem. Also the Edelbrock carb has no adjustments to make the fuel richer or leaner.
     
  6. Karl M
    Joined: Jul 19, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Karl M

    All spark plugs look good, grayish color. No water in oil....
     
  7. Are you sure the temp sensor is accurate??? If you can verify that, I am with Sheep Dip - sounds like a bad head gasket may be pushing HOT combustion gases into your coolant.
     
    rjones35 likes this.
  8. Karl M
    Joined: Jul 19, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Karl M

    Yep it is pushing water out into the over flow jug and worst case situation out around the radiator cap.
     
  9. Definitely sounds like a head gasket problem. Is it as bad or worse at idle?
     
  10. Karl M
    Joined: Jul 19, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Karl M

    About the same at idle. If I start it and just let it idle it will gradually climb and over heat. Ambient temp here is 90 to 100 degrees outside. 70 degrees yesterday and it still climbed to 220 degrees in five miles.
     
  11. Time for a leak-down test or one of those quick little test kits that detect combustion by-products in the coolant.
     
  12. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,942

    BJR
    Member

    If you start it up cold with the radiator cap off can you see any bubbles coming out of the coolest. If so that would prove the blown head gasket. Does the exhaust sound good and not like it is partially plugged with mouse nests? A plugged exhaust will make a car run hot. Was the motor converted from a serpentine belt to V belt? If so you may have the wrong water pump on it.
     
  13. i don't think the pusher fan is helping anything but blocking air flow.

    Mick
     
  14. Karl M
    Joined: Jul 19, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Karl M

    No bubbles, exhaust looks and sounds good. I guess the PO put in the 350 and built around it. V belt. It does have headers, I pulled those and wrapped them to help keep the heat down.
     
  15. Karl M
    Joined: Jul 19, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Karl M

    I was thinking the same thing, plus the transmission cooler is in front of the rad also. The PO had problems with vapor lock....so he put the electric fan on. He never solved the problem... I have been chasing/fixing his "mods". I may move them both.
     
  16. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,988

    squirrel
    Member

    My wild guess is that the radiator is too small, and maybe something else fun that's wrong with it that pictures might help us find.
     
    6inarow and jeffd1988 like this.
  17. Karl M
    Joined: Jul 19, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Karl M

    I suspected the radiator too, even with the four cores....? I'll get pictures later today. The stock radiators were three core. The motors were either six or four cylinders for these beasts. This radiator is the same dimensions except for the fact that it has the extra core.
     
  18. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 4,421

    sunbeam
    Member

    One of the cheapest ways to check the head gasket is to stick the overflow hose in a bucket of water some times it's hard to see the bubbles in the radiator. With the cap on pressure will build and over power the cap and the bubbles will show up in the bucket.
     
  19. bonzo-1
    Joined: Oct 13, 2010
    Posts: 326

    bonzo-1
    Member

  20. Another one, put a disposable latex or vinyl glove over the radiator neck, start it up. If it fills immediately with air, it can indicate a head gasket leak. It happens within a few seconds or the heat itself will expand the air in the glove past that.
     
    Atwater Mike and Bandit Billy like this.
  21. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,988

    squirrel
    Member

    bigger motor needs bigger dimension radiator (height/width). Going from 3 to 4 cores usually doesn't do nearly as much as going to a larger area radiator.
     
  22. 27Tudor
    Joined: Jun 17, 2007
    Posts: 117

    27Tudor
    Member

    Is it possible that the PO painted it with the wrong paint?

    Sent from my SM-N910V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  23. Karl M
    Joined: Jul 19, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Karl M

    Here is a couple of test pictures to make sure I got the size right, more to come.

    IMG_2181.JPG IMG_2187.JPG
     
  24. Karl M
    Joined: Jul 19, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Karl M

    OK, here we go. A lot crammed into a small space for one thing.

    IMG_2182.JPG IMG_2183.JPG IMG_2184.JPG IMG_2188.JPG IMG_2189.JPG
     
  25. Sheep Dip
    Joined: Dec 29, 2010
    Posts: 1,572

    Sheep Dip
    Member
    from Central Ca

    Lot's of hunch's on what's wrong Karl. I would start by eliminating the head blown head gasket theory... to me it leans towards that and it can be done inexpensively as others have posted. If it passes the test and proves to be sound, then move on to your next best hunch until you get it resolved.
    Just a friendly FYI......For $42 I own one of these, for a hot rod hobby guy it's a no brainer with shop rates north of $100 an hour here in Kalifornia.
    https://www.amazon.com/Goplus-Unive...r=8-7&keywords=coolant+system+pressure+tester
     
    dana barlow and Slow down like this.
  26. Karl M
    Joined: Jul 19, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Karl M

    Just topped off the rad to see if any bubbles, yep. By squeezing the rad top hose they stopped coming...air from the flush maybe... May have to invest in the pressure tester.. temp climbed to 210 just idling before I shut her down. IMG_2190.JPG IMG_2191.JPG
     
  27. 56premiere
    Joined: Mar 8, 2011
    Posts: 1,445

    56premiere
    Member
    from oregon

    Did you see any movement of water as it heated? When it hit thermos opening temp the water should move. The bubbles I have seen with a blown gasket are more like a fart in the bathtub. Good luck
     
  28. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,988

    squirrel
    Member

    pics, yay!

    could you get the camera back a bit further and take a few that show the whole radiator? hard to tell how big it is, we're too close up. Or maybe measure the core size.

    The engine driven fan looks like it probably should work, although the extra fan on front might be blocking air (make sure it's turning the right way, also).

    there are reverse rotation water pumps that have the impeller going the wrong way, make sure it's not one of those. I think that started in the late 80s.

    The fuel line is scary.
     
    shawnsauto1 likes this.
  29. proartguy
    Joined: Apr 13, 2009
    Posts: 378

    proartguy
    Member
    from Sparks, NV

    That style shroud is not efficient with open areas. The air needs to be pulled by the fan across the entire core. A four core radiator is harder to get air to flow through. A larger diameter fan, if possible, with a better shroud will be an improvement.

    Radiator paint is very thin to help heat transfer. Retarded timing will make it run hot.
     
  30. Yea I had one of those junk shrouds. Completely worthless. After I put a good shroud on my car I solved my low speed hot running.
     
    jeffd1988 likes this.

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