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An additional engine only to power a supercharger for the main engine?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by oldandnew, Apr 21, 2013.

  1. oldandnew
    Joined: Nov 15, 2012
    Posts: 16

    oldandnew
    Member
    from FL

    Has it been done before?

    Instead of going thru the hassles of connecting two engines together I believe you can use an additional engine to power a supercharger, then feed the compressed air to the main engine with a hose or tubing.

    Also you can locate the additional engine anywhere in the car, maybe in the trunk/rear to improve weight distribution.
     
  2. How do you want to regulate the speed of the blower engine to the actual speed of the drive engine?
    I imagine you could use an electrically driven blower, but really, I´m thinking that if it was a good idea, I think somebody would have successfully tried it by now.
     
  3. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,344

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    :rolleyes: This has to be my response to this one I'm afraid. :rolleyes:
     
  4. classic gary
    Joined: Sep 24, 2009
    Posts: 497

    classic gary
    Member

    It was tried back in the early sixty's. a gasser I believe. If I worked it would be in use now?
     
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  5. 33 Willys. Ran the blower in the back with a second engine. I think Hot Rod deluxe had a feature on it last year. Not finding pics at the moment
     
  6. 63comet
    Joined: Jan 31, 2006
    Posts: 508

    63comet
    Member

    Yes it has. I remember seeing a car in an old magazine that had a Crosley motor mounted on the running board running a supercharger.

    Crosley engines are really neat bits of engineering.
     
  7. 63comet
    Joined: Jan 31, 2006
    Posts: 508

    63comet
    Member

    And FWIW this was also the principle of the Turbonique super chargers. They used an external combustion engine though.
     
  8. PackardV8
    Joined: Jun 7, 2007
    Posts: 885

    PackardV8
    Member

    Yes, obviously it can be done.

    No, it's very much not a good idea. Huge extra weight, complexity of packaging, plumbing and controls. No racing association would allow it. If they did, the displacement of the slave engine would be counted in the formula. Remember Jim Hall and the Super Sucker Chaparral? It used a snowmobile engine to drive a fan which evacuated air from underneath the car. "No way," said the CanAm.

    Maybe, define the goals and the budget and the reasons why not will become obvious.

    Superchargers take a lot of horsepower to drive to make the 20# pressure @ 1000 CFM. An electric motor strong enough to drive a supercharger would weigh a lot, take up a lot of space and where would the high voltage/high amperage come from? They aren't built either because they aren't practical.

    jack vines
     
  9. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 9,888

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Actually it has been done in aircraft when they had pistons. And in the Willys mentioned. Sanctioning bodys made it illegal. But it did seem to work. Aircraft have been flown that used one engine as a gas generator for turbos blowing into the two main engines. And a design for an airliner in which 8 engines drove four turbines that drove the props. No mechanical connection between the engines and props. But turbines made those obsolete before they were built. Electric power is commonly made by running CF-6 size engines and using the exhaust to drive the turbine that drives the generator.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
  10. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,516

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Packard V8 pretty well covered all the bases. Weight and out of compliance for any and all racing associations most likely.

    On the electric motor thing, any power drain saved off the engine would be eaten up dragging the weight of the battery pack down the track. Along with a high powered electric motor it would require a battery pack that weighed several hundred pounds.
    You can always tell when it's Sunday morning as someone always comes up with some real off the wall crap to throw out.
     
  11. DD COOPMAN
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 1,121

    DD COOPMAN
    Member

    Then again, there were a few guys that told Orville and Wilbur that their ideas were "off the wall", too. DD
     
  12. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    the electric supercharger thing has actually been done, the problem is it only runs in short bursts such as drag racing, the key was linking three electric motors together with a planetary drive, and powering it with three of those lightweight batteries,
     
  13. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,822

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    Leaf blower? That's been discussed and ruled out.

    I'd imagine a small gas turbine would be light weight and spool up enough boost. Like taking two turbochargers in tandem and running one as a jet engine and the other as a cold air compression turbine. I'd call it an accessory engine driven turbocharger. I think this has been done before.

    I guess you could control boost with a combination of turbine speed, wastegates or a set of throttle plates.

    Edit: CRAP, it's already patented!

    http://www.google.com/patents/US4145888
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
  14. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    The article mentioned was in an old Hot Rod Magazine entitled "Wind Jammer Willys." It was a 33 coupe and I think the trunk mounted blower was driven by a Wisconsin engine, if I recall correctly. It evidently didn't work all that well or we would be seeing more people who tried it.

    Probably the one drawback is all the extra weight of the second motor and synchronizing the two engines so the boost would be available at the correct time. It was sort of a Rube Goldberg approach, but back then people were not afraid to think outside the box and some pretty weird contraptions showed up.

    Don
     
  15. Rickybop
    Joined: May 23, 2008
    Posts: 6,273

    Rickybop
    Member
    from Michigan

    I think it's a moo point.

    You know...cows don't really have opinions. So it's moo.
     
  16. How do ya know they doan have opinions? I do know a bull always takes his date to the mooovies!
     
  17. Settle down Joey !
     
  18. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 16,928

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    True, but they were never attempting to violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Attempting to produce lift sufficient to carry a heavier-than-air aircraft is far different from attempting to overcome the fundamentals of what governs the very existence of everything in the Universe. While the former was demonstrated to be entirely feasible, the latter will never be achieved.
     
  19. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,737

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    The Fageol twin engine road race car had two Porsche 365 engines and transaxles.

    Each engine had a extra ( chainsaw ) engine, that drove a supercharger.

    Must have been a super complicated car to drive, and to work on.

    But I guess Lou Fageol wasn't the type of guy who'd let life's little obstacles get in his way.

    When Porsche wouldnt sell him the engines and gearboxes he needed for his project, he just bought two Porsches.
    And yanked the drivelines out of them...

    fageol011080705127.jpg

    fageol021080705105.jpg

    fageol031080705148.jpg
     
  20. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,737

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    And then there is a more current version of the idea ( Off Topic for the HAMB so I'm not going to post pics, but Google Nick Mann hillclimb and you'll find it )

    Which uses a helicoper auxilliary turbine which drives a supercharger to pressurise a Ford BDA in a Clubmans chassis.

    It is a very quick car...
     
  21. DD COOPMAN
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 1,121

    DD COOPMAN
    Member

    Sooooooo...this has exactly what to do with the price of tea in China, or with teleonomy, for that matter? DD
     
  22. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 16,928

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Powering a supercharger with a second engine, to pressurize the first engine will always waste (converts to heat) more power than it produces. This might be feasible for the short-term, say a few laps, or 1320-feet, it, it the long run, is a losing proposition. Entropy always wins.
     
  23. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,737

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    Yep, the extra complication and weight is a disatvantage.

    But maybe synchronising doesnt have to be too difficult.

    My guess is, the easyest to do this is run the pony motor at WOT all the time.
    And let it create a false ( higher ) atmospheric pressure.

    And tune the main engine to that pressure.

    That way, the boost is always there when you need it...

    ( maybe with a blow off valve to bleed some pressure when you dont need it )
     
  24. snaptwo
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 696

    snaptwo
    Member

    Mickey Thompson tried a compressed air bottle to raise the ambient air pressure on a dragster ,it worked but NHRA said no , their techs didn't think a large bottle containing 2000 Lbs. of compressed air was safe. Always thinking that Mickey.
     
  25. isnt the new top land speed record attempt being done in a streamliner of sorts that has a separate F1 motor for its jet engine fuel I think.
    Bloodhound Supersonic
     
  26. Scta illegal

    Sent from my DROID device using the TJJ mobile app
     
  27. Dave Downs
    Joined: Oct 25, 2005
    Posts: 862

    Dave Downs
    Member
    from S.E. Penna

    I think I heard somewhere that a 6-71 requires something like 100hp to put out 15-20bs of boost at 6000-7000rpm
     
  28. mike hohnstein
    Joined: Dec 4, 2011
    Posts: 262

    mike hohnstein
    BANNED
    from wisconsin

    Guess that's why the Germans used nitrous.
     
  29. toxic waste
    Joined: Dec 18, 2011
    Posts: 378

    toxic waste
    Member
    from Iowa

    All I can say is, Why ? What do you think your going to do this this? If it worked then top fuel would use this kind of set up. It take more then 400 to 500 ++hp to drive there blower at spead. The looks of a blower on a V8 looks and works good, What look would you have with the blower in the trunk with a motor and batteries ?
     

  30. They are using that mtor just to turn the fuel pumps !!!
     

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