Technical Alternative Starting Arrangements

Some on here reckon it's academic, but for me it always keeps coming back to an idea of technological ethos. There is a specific character to "traditional" technology which comes down to there having been a way of doing things then which is different to the way things are done now, and that difference isn't arbitrary or random. It'd be interesting to sit down and map the exact difference in full detail, but that's worth a PhD. One definite difference, though, is that today the sweep and ambit of an available electrical system is taken for granted; then it was regarded as dubious.

This line of thinking, intermittent with occasional fumings about the world going to hell in a handbasket what with electric vehicles which lack the common decency to perform like milk floats, has led to sporadic daydreams of getting rid of as much electrical content in a car as possible. It's not that hard to limit an electrical system to ignition, lights, and starting; so much better – though certainly more complicated – if I could get rid of the last-named of those as well.

Of course the black-start problem was a thing in the history of the automobile, twice. The first time should be common knowledge but was not yet quite resolved with Kettering's electric starter of 1911; the second time was when faced with the greater compression ratios of diesel engines later in the 20th century. All this turned up a lot of very interesting engineering.

Hand-crank starting, recoil starting, air starting, hydraulic starting, shotgun starting, clockwork starting, pony starting; what else was there? Who's got interesting stories? And is there any record of improvised hot-rod use, for whatever reason?

 

when i was working on a 1911 Lozier, i turned the ignition on, then moved the spark advance lever, in preparation to hand crank it to start, but the movement of the ignition opened the points and it started. perfect storm of ,flammable vapors, compression, and spark. i wonder if that could be planned out? identify cylinder on compression, pre injecting of a volitive solution, then fire spark?

 

There is always "gravity" start,,, with a manual gearbox,,

 

Once in a while a Model A could be started by playing with the advance.

 

Same principle here:..."For gasoline engines with direct fuel injection, Bosch has developed a direct-starting system that provides for start-stop engine operation within a broad range of temperatures. A starter motor is not required."
https://www.etas.com/data/RealTimes_2006/rt_2006_01_34_en.pdf

 

am•bit
(ˈæm bɪt)
n.
1. a circumference; circuit.
2. a boundary; limit.
3. a sphere of operation or influence; scope.
[1350–1400; < Latin ambitus, derivative of ambi-, variant s. of ambīre (see ambient)]

How is it that I've gotten this far in my life without ever knowing of the simple five-letter word "ambit"? Has my life been that sheltered? It's a "skookum" word, if you know what I mean.

 

on some older aircraft engines you can prop start them , or use a crank to wind up an inertia starter

 

Small aircraft engines can be hand-propped. Inertia starters (big flywheel with a handle) were also common on bigger engines. I think that some German aircraft engines (inline, not rotary) were started by cranking a magneto that caused the proper sparkplug to fire after the mechanic pulled the prop into the proper position. There was also something called a Coffman starter that used a shotgun shell to start the engine. You gotta love that.

 

push starts were common when I was at High School

 

Any thread, or post, that is tagged 'Ned Ludd' is a must read item. Glad you are here and hope you stay a long time.

Ray

 

Hnstray, I agree with that. Always look forward to Neds slant on things.

 

there are a few guys here on this board, that if i see one of there posts or threads, i make sure i read it. you guys are amongst them.

 

Ditto......

 

Hi Joe.......good to see you here too. You may recall me as 'Wayne's brother'. Visited with you at Springfield and the Nat's on occasion.

Ray

 

My granny had a lawnmower that you wound up a spring and then released it to start it. That's what I started with, I didn't have enough ass to pull the rope on pop's. Be hard to adapt to a car, but it would not surprise me to find out somebody has done it.
I think we all went through a period where we made sure to park on a hill, because we had no money to fix the starter. Always seemed to happen on Saturday night, after you couldn't get parts.

 

there were lots of gadgits on model Ts. some one in our club has one that is a series of pulleys and a rope handle to pull stickin out the dash. another i had, but never mounted, was a big coil spring like a garage door, mounted in a tube along the drivers side frame rail. it had a crank in the front, you wound up the spring like some of the old lawn mowers, and tripped a lever to start the motor. the thing would some how rewind its self on the last few revs. when you shut it off. heres some chat about it http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/400538.html?1384141182

 

When cars had acetylene gas lights instead of electric there was a system to fill the cylinders with acetylene and start the engine this way from cold. Model Ts and other early cars had a system that produced a continuous buzzing spark at TDC. This system was really good at low speeds, not so good at 2000 RPMs. Expensive cars had twin ignition, buzzer coil for easy starting and magneto for reliable high speed spark. If everything was working right they would start with 1/4 turn of the crank, red hot or stone cold. As you say, they would often start without touching the crank especially when warm.

Such cars were perfectly servicable even though they had NO electrical system except for sparks.

It would be possible to build a diesel p0wered car with a small diesel pony starter and acetylene lighting that used no electricity at all.

 

Possibly the strangest starting system was used on circle track racing cars in the early 20th century. They had in and out gearbox, no clutch and no starter. To start the engine you would put it in gear, lock the rear brakes, and push the car with another car or pickup truck with the back wheels skidding then turn on the mag and release the brakes. If all went well the engine would fire and away you go.

 

I got thinking about this after watching Better Call Saul and the brother with the electrical allergy. Tried to figure out a way to modify an old Mercedes diesel to run with no electricity. If you covered the windows with black wire mesh you could make a perfect Faraday cage of the body, insulated on rubber tires. Preferably bias ply because radials have wire in them.

Legally you would have to have turn signals and brake lights but could eliminate the rest of the electrical system or cut it out in the day time.

 

Always loved the sound of the air starter on one of our customer's old B model Mack roll off truck. Maybe you could figure out to how harness the recalled Takata airbag inflators; then you wouldn't even be dependent on a source of compressed air.

 

Only three weeks ago I had to push my car (uphill at first) through a parking lot, get up enough speed to jump in, jam it into second and dump the clutch. That got it started and got me home. When I was a teenager this was routine.

It made me remember the alternative, like starting my uncle’s 1940 Case tractor, where you had to keep your thumb out of the way while hand cranking. Or else.

 

You could carry a cylinder of nitrogen gas at 2000 PSI to power a compressed air starter. Such a cylinder does not cost much to fill and will last a long time.

 

Watching a WW2 program on TV the other night I saw the German planes being started with a device that appeared to be a hand crank that seemed to wind up a spring. The mechanic cranked on that thing for about 30 seconds and then stood back while the pilot started the engine.
I once had a 47 Cadillac with a 6 volt system and a flathead V/8 with 4 speed hydramatic . Parked it on a hill anytime it was below 20 degrees to bump start it......let it coast down the hill 'till it got to about 15 MPH and drop it in low...started every time.

 

You forgot the most HAMB appropriate [and infamous] "Jumper Starting"
And I ain't referring to the item of clothing

 

Had an old Craftsman mower years ago that used this system. You unfolded a crank handle on the top of the motor which would engage a ratchet that allowed you wind the spring. After about three revolutions of the crank, you'd flip the handle over to the closed position to release the ratchet which then allowed the spring to spin the engine. After doing this 8 or 10 times it would sometimes fire up. I think they referred to this setup as an "impulse starter".

 

Old volkswagon, bad starter. Jack up drivers rear with VW jack, turn on ignition, select second gear. Grab top of wheel, spin foreward to start. place in neutral, lower jack.

 

The local Amish use a diesel engine to run a sawmill but they don't use electricity. They had a starter modified with a pulley to wrap a rope around and use a horse to pull the rope.

 

Many farms had a ramp to pull a wagon load of hay into the hay mow above the barn. Many parked their John Deere tractors on the ramp to roll down instead of turning the flywheel by hand to start them.

 

how about this one, ww1 airplane starter http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/206106.html

 

That thing was a flywheel starter. You mechanics wound the flywheel up to speed and the pilot would dump the clutch on it and engage the engine. I am almost sure of that. I would think it was to save the weight and complexity of a starter motor, although that must have been a stout flywheel.