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Technical Air/Fuel Ratio Wideband Kit

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 28 Ford PU, Jan 21, 2018.

  1. 28 Ford PU
    Joined: Jan 9, 2015
    Posts: 454

    28 Ford PU
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    I'm looking to purchase a AFR for my personal use and could use anybody recommendations. I've search the the topic but couldn't find anything recent most were 5-7 years ago and I would think the technology has changed in the last 5 years.

    I'm not a techie car guy, Pertronix is as high tech I get so I don't want to plug into a laptop or data base monitor gizmo just a gauge and sensor $100-$200 range. Even a good used unit if someone has upgraded there toolbox.


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  2. Joe H
    Joined: Feb 10, 2008
    Posts: 1,008

    Joe H
    Member

    I am real happy with mine, I bought it last year. https://www.speedhut.com/gauge/GL258-AFWB-09/7/Standalone-Air-Fuel-Wideband-O2-gauge-8-5-18
    I was able to get it for $199 when they were on sale. I would still purchase one now knowing how much it helps the tune up. All it needed was power (+) ( - ), light hook-up, and a bung welded into the down pipe. The cable is a little thick so you might have to wrestle it around a little. I believe you can hook up to laptops and do other things with it, but I just use it as is. Speedhut use the newest O-2 sensors out there so replacements are everywhere. Watch out for the cheaper gauges, some use proprietary O2 sensors that cost as much as the gauge itself.
    You will be surprised how little adjustments to the carburetor make big changes to the air/fuel ratio. On mine, 250 inline 6 w/dual W-1 carters, just a .030" float drop will lean it out 1.5 points. A 1/16 turn of an idle screw can change it 1 point also. It's a lot of fun tinkering around with the carbs and timing trying to get that last little bit of fuel mileage or power.
    Speed hut also lets you customize the gauge for free, or they will match your OEM gauges for a fee. I tinted mine to match my '37 Chevy truck gauges.

    You can see in the pictures its pretty close to the right color and if I would add the black center it would match even better. The tach and vacuum gauge are cheap-o ones from Summit. I took them apart and scanned the original face and altered them in a cheap photo program, then printed them on heavy card stock.
    Joe
     

    Attached Files:

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  3. Joe H
    Joined: Feb 10, 2008
    Posts: 1,008

    Joe H
    Member

    In case you couldn't tell, I have plenty of gauges to look at! I don't use the tach much or the vacuum gauge anymore now that I have the A/F gauge. The others still look good though. I use velcro to hold the A/F to the dash, I can shove it under the dash out of sight if I need to at a show, sure don't want it to walk off.
     
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  4. 28 Ford PU
    Joined: Jan 9, 2015
    Posts: 454

    28 Ford PU
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    Wide or narrow band?

    From what I've read use wideband only? You agree?


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  5. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,920

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  6. Mike VV
    Joined: Sep 28, 2010
    Posts: 2,276

    Mike VV
    Member
    from SoCal

    28 Ford -
    Just a heads up, you aren't looking for an AFR like your first sentence notes. That's Air Fuel Ratio... I think you want something to "monitor" the AFR.

    Correct, "wide band" only. Much faster and more accurate information provided.

    AEM and Innovate are two good ones to look at.
    Simple to install east to read...BUT...THEN...you need to "understand" what to do with that new knowledge. How to adjust your carburetion/fuel injection to make the AFR more correct "thought" the whole RPM range.
    The AFR meters/gauges will provide the info, it's up to you the user to both understand it and make changes to to make the gauge numbers better.

    Mike
     
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  7. PLX- SM AFR, made in US and has good reputation.
     
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  8. 28 Ford PU
    Joined: Jan 9, 2015
    Posts: 454

    28 Ford PU
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    I took a look at your suggested Plx-sm-AFR and I got a chubby on.

    1. No gauge iPhone use. - I wasn't sure where I would mount another gauge or just use the gauge as a handheld display. With no gauge it keeps me in my price range.

    2. I was looking to be able to remove easily for show and plug it in for tuning only.

    Do they have a law for Air Fuel Monitoring while driving?




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  9. I used an Innovative on my 59 ElCamino for tuning on Drag Week, took it out before I sold the car so I could put it in another project. I liked the analog style gauge because it blends in, until you turn on the lights and it glows a funny color.
    Beware there is a lot of wiring involved, more than you would think.
    Aquamino AF gauge.JPG
     
  10. 28 Ford PU
    Joined: Jan 9, 2015
    Posts: 454

    28 Ford PU
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    Another question. What is the differences between a 4.2 vs. 4.9 sensor and is it a game stopper?
     
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  11. It's just a newer version of Bosch, technology develops constantly but either one is good to go. On a dual system you need to have both sides the same.
     
  12. bchctybob
    Joined: Sep 18, 2011
    Posts: 2,906

    bchctybob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Anyone tried the Edelbrock LED version? It's small, simple and inexpensive. I'm thinking of putting one on my wife's Corvair. It's a single sensor style and her car has a single exhaust.
     
  13. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 1,895

    Beanscoot
    Member

    I'm interested in just buying a wide band oxygen sensor and hooking it up to a multimeter in the car for tuning, any suggestions for a more moderately priced sensor that is available?

    Looking online I find OEM wide band oxygen sensors for specific cars, but I don't know if they are actually the type needed for carb tuning.
     
  14. 28 Ford PU
    Joined: Jan 9, 2015
    Posts: 454

    28 Ford PU
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    Wow you got a shit load of wires dangling. I was expecting sensor cord and a power harness. The Innovate looks to be one of the best are they all like that?
     
  15. 28 Ford PU
    Joined: Jan 9, 2015
    Posts: 454

    28 Ford PU
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    I've read a bit about taking reading off a multimeter but I had the same question in my mind,what sensor. Seems like the Bosch 4.9 is what most of the meters come with but there's got to be more to it?
     
  16. Exactly what I said. There is the big plug coming from the Bosch O2 sensor, key power, heater, constant power, ground, dash light, and signal. Plus the Innovative has a port for data logging or to integrate into an ECU. Way more electronics than I have on any of my hot rods.
    Wide-band will give you the full spectrum of readings, narrow band are used with a computer and are only looking for a small window on a modern car (Think pre and post Cat), the wide-band is what you need. I only have one on the driver side exhaust, I do not run two, I figure both sides should be the same for what I am tuning. I think the Bosch O2 sensor is just a VW part number you can find somewhere if you want just the sensor.

    I would NOT recommend using a multi-meter, the readings will change a lot depending on throttle position and load, you will be chasing numbers instead of just watching the gauge, I dont think the little savings is worth it. and for me it was another gauge in the car which is always good.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
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  17. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 4,419

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    Once in a while the earlier Innovate units pop up on that auction site. It's a standalone unit too, a wideband O2 sensor, no computers or satellites required. All brands and models pretty much use the same O2 sensor afaik, a Bosch unit. The controller needs to know what kind it is during calibration, but other than that it's not an issue.

    It's what gets done with the numbers that makes the difference. If you want to get fancy, you can install a bung for each exhaust bank and check both, but strictly speakin', it ain't necessary.

    Speaking of, you didn't explain what you're trying to do other than "personal use" but the narrow band just provides a numerical voltage reading and is a little trickier to read. It will tell you "lean" or "rich" or "stoich" but (maybe?) not how much, I think that's where the wide band designation comes in. The narrow band types won't provide enough range to make useful tuning changes, is my WAG. You want to (basically) lean it out till it squeeks on the highway, but richen it up nice and fat when under load and acceleration. Idle, who cares so long as it sounds good and doesn't foul the plugs.

    The wideband types convert the raw numbers into an AFR display - like 12.5 or 14.7 or 15.5 etc. Maybe there's more to it than that, I don't know. I suppose if you want to dig in and make the voltage to AFR conversion on the fly in your head it would save quite a few bucks compared to the trick commercial units, but again I think the problem is they don't go out on either end far enough so won't display the equivalent of 12.5 or 15.5 AFR in terms of voltage. Maybe they do, I dunno.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  18. You can't really do that with a wide band sensor. They require a controller to drive the heater circuit.

    The old narrow band sensors are self regulating
     
  19. Isn't this the H.A.M.B., a traditional car forum that talks traditional stuff like reading spark plugs ???
     
  20. 28 Ford PU
    Joined: Jan 9, 2015
    Posts: 454

    28 Ford PU
    Member
    from Upstate NY


    Personal use is my 28 Ford PU 1968 302 with 3 Stromberg 48's on a tunnel ram. See pictures

    Awhile back I had a question about reading plugs with today's fuel.

    I know I'm rich idling @ 800 RPM with idle screws out only 1/2-3/4 turns.

    My main concern is running lean flat out. In that last post I sent pictures of the plugs with the electrode strap bluish purple.

    I can't hear detonation over the headers and no sign of piston deposits on the plugs. It will be cheaper buying AFM that a blown engine. [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    I also don't have much room even for a tiny 2 1/16 gauge.

    [​IMG][​IMG]


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  21. bchctybob
    Joined: Sep 18, 2011
    Posts: 2,906

    bchctybob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I sure don't see a problem with this thread. Modern fuels make it hard to tune by spark plug readings, especially with multiple carbs. If we want to drive 'em we've gotta figure a way to tune them to survive on todays crap fuels. It's not like it's 18" wheels or something, just a little gauge or a hand held meter you take off when you're done. Read and learn.....
     
  22. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 4,419

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    An AFR meter is great for that, because there's no guess or by golly. Experienced mechanics who grew up tuning by plug color can do pretty well today even with modern fuels, which will look pretty lean even when running rich. Most of us aren't that good. And one of the ways some of them got that experience was by melting down a piston or valve over the years. You are wise to be concerned about running lean under power. That is where the danger lies.

    Just make sure there aren't any exhaust manifold leaks, install the O2 sensor as close as possible to the collector where it belongs per directions. Ignition has to be 100%, i.e. No misfires or you'll get false lean readings.
     
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  23. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,920

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    As has been mentioned, and especially in California, with our "special blend" of gasoline, reading plugs is approaching impossible.

    I have seen vehicles that should have soot on their plugs, based on the O2 reading, but don't. I have seen others that are at-risk for burning a piston or valve that look about the same.

    Stoichiometric A/F ratio for E10 is not 14.7:1 like straight gas, it's 14.04:1. For E85 it's 9.75:1. No plug read will accurately show that.

    I have turned cars back out that were "professionally tuned" by a plug-reader, with a 15% increase in power, and a 33% increase in overall fuel mileage. Same major parts. Same vehicle.

    Every see two copies of a Chiltons or Haynes manual, with a full-color plug reading page, side-by-side? Ever notice that the two pages do not match, due to printing differences and age?

    Plug reading has always been just guessing. Now, we have science.

    We can try to party like it's 1959, but it isn't. Dumping soot out the tailpipe, and fuel washing your cylinders might be traditional, but it certainly is not smart.

    Complete combustion = maximum power = maximum efficiency.
     
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  24. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,920

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Detonation (pre-ignition) begins way before the human ear can hear it, even without the loud pipes. You might already be there.

    You don't need to leave the gauge in the car. The one I use is about 3/4" thick. I glued a magnet to the back of it. I stick it to a convenient metal surface, over a soft cloth, while I am tuning. Once done, a plug goes in the O2 bung, and the gauge comes out.
     
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  25. Couple questions from someone who has no clue about this. Doesn't the gauge have to be in the engine compartment when you're adjusting the carb? And then I guess when ya go out on a run (after ya put the gauge back inside the car), the reading changes as the speed and load changes.so how do you adjust the carb back in the driveway to say correct a lean condition at 75 mph but it's ok at idle?
     
  26. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,920

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Practice.

    The only time it would need to be near the engine compartment for tuning is for idle mixture.

    Any other readings you would get there would not be under load, and would therefor be meaningless.

    Once you have changed jets or metering rods a few times, you get a feel for how much each increment changes fuel mixture, and when.

    I can take a Weber or Edelbrock equipped vehicle out for a drive, once, come back to the shop, and nail the the entire setup, 95% of the time, in one shot.
     
  27. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 5,365

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Triple dueces on a tunnel ram? Cool, where'd you get the top?
     
  28. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 4,419

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    Once you start messing around with it while carburetor tuning it starts to make sense. Idle fuel circuit has little or nothing to do with the cruise fuel circuit or the power circuit. Very little air moves through a carburetor at idle, so engine manifold vacuum is utilized to provide accurately metered and tailored air fuel mixture, the mixture screws trim that out to your engine.

    The way it works in general each carburetor circuit is tuned to spec independently one at a time. The idle circuit is roughed in, then take it for a spin on the highway and get the cruise AFR jetting dialed in. Once Jetting is determined, this in turn affects the wide open throttle air fuel ratio. Drilling out fixed carb passages may be required. This is a pita but you'll thank yourself everytime you drive it.

    It's important that under load or acceleration the AFR never, ever goes lean. (Think acetylene cutting torch when you start feeding the O2 in) By optomizing each different carb circuit it will improve both performance and economy of a street driven motor.
     
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  29. RacingRoger
    Joined: Sep 11, 2017
    Posts: 208

    RacingRoger
    Member

    Forgive my ignorance, plus I don't have a set of installation instructions to consult....if I don't permanently mount a gauge, can the O2 sensor stay in place, or does it have to be replaced with a plug when not in use? What would you H.A.M.B.er's do?
     
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  30. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 4,419

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    O2 sensor can stay of course but it must be energized anytime engine is running or it will be damaged. So once tuning is wrapped up most will remove it and cap off bung.
     
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