The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by buick bill, Nov 15, 2021.
I like the way you think! I should like to subscribe to your newsletter.
i just posted pix above . anyone else see what ive already seen . and yes i wiil defianatly hand lap before assy. from now on
^^^ With the head assembled, pour some gas into each port and let it sit for a couple of minutes. Then inspect the combustion chamber for moisture around the valve seats. This will tell you how well the valves are sealing.
Speak with the owner, give em a chance. 600 is small claims recoverable but personally my times worth more than that
i just spoke with them . they want me to bring the head in . something is causing these problems . well at least we agree on something !
see the hammer marks where the center of the valve was meeting with the edge of the seat ? or as usual , am i crazy ??
The only thing I can see, is the contact on the valve seems a tad low. But that is good, as it gives you a little lee way to straighten up the seat! I can’t tell much about the seat, due to glare.
I am sorry about your trouble.
You could file in small claims, serve the business notice yourself, write up your claim and arguments and present them to the judge. You might win. I expect that process will take several hours of prep and a couple of hours of sitting around. Maybe he doesn't show up - so you win a summary judgement. If the short of it is [he and I had different ideas about what a good job looks like], you may find the process frustrating.
IF you win, that just leaves you with having to collect. Getting a judgement in small claims does not offer you any method for collection. You could try to get a lien on his business - where I live that means you need to go to district court (which practically means you need a lawyer). Collection is far from guaranteed either way.
My suggestion is that you fill out a review of Google / Yelp / etc, cut your losses and move on.
First problem you told them to do it cheap because it won't be driven much. It doesn't matter how far you are going to drive it... have it done right.
A head that old needs guides, hardened seats and probably all new valves to be done right. They gave you a cheap job by grinding the valves and seats. You got what you asked for. Before I retired, if a customer told me to do a job by not doing it right.... I pointed him towards the door. I didn't do things that way.
As mentioned, a valve seat won't cause a valve to stick.
I have tried to contact the BBB here and complain and it is near impossible! If they are a member and paid their dues they get a good rating no matter how many complaints are made. Had an OT job done on my house ($25K) and did a shitty job but they were rated highly by the BBB. Found dozens of complaints about this outfit from other sources (local lumber companies, other customers) but still had a great rating. If you are in a club ask other members who they use or ask around at car shows/swapmeets. Way more reliable information, I too drive to a shop 70 miles away because the local shops have bad stories from other people.
heres a couple more pix . it might be hard to see what im seeing in real time . after a whole lot of thought i am going to go purchace some compound . remove a valve next door . un-damaged . and see what countact i get on the seat . i should be able to see for sure if the seat matches the valve , or if its off . if it seatc even then the valve had to be bent . i can think of no other explanation ???
well the valve was new ,as was the guide . i think/thought that a hard seat was not always needed . i have several classics i have had for years that dont have hard seats and they have been trouble free so far . knock on wood . the head i replaced does not have hard seats and worked fine . i might be wrong in thinking hard seats are a un-necessary i guess .an sure wont argue the point. i will argue that the iron seats will fail in 40 mi. if i had been told to take my head and leave . we might not have a problem either !!
Hard seats are for longevity and in very hard worked engines, like trucks. Show cars….no problem. But the valve has to seat. If you lap the valves in , be sure to not spin the valve….just rock it back and forth. Spinning the valve can give a false reading.
thnx for ALL the response . the main thing is to get this right so i can move on to other things . there is no shortage of things that need attention . and finding blame isnt what im after . but finding cause and effect is . ! i will make sure not to destroy the contact patch . i wonder if a felt tip on the seat may be a good idea to help see what is happening ? if the problem isnt the seat ,then i have to replace the valve . if so should i be able to lap in the new valve by hand and be good ? id be happy NOT to make the 100 mi. loop to the shop if some how they didnt cause the problem . at this point i have paid for new intake guides ,new bronze inserts in the exhaust . and new valves that THEY said were needed !
Bill, did the motor have good oil coming out of the rocker shaft the entire length ?? good oil pressure?? Another area is did the shop put some fancy seals on the intakes starving the valve stem for oil? keep us posted . Pete.
I understand your frustration I would return the head to the machine shop. Talk to person in charge tell him everything you know to be true about the fact’s of the job. Ask him his opinion on what happened if it all makes sense let him make repairs.
If he doesn’t take any responsibility take it somewhere else.
To those suggesting litigation, that's why there are few smaller operations out there. Not blaming the OP but there are always those who know they have junk, then blame it on a shop to get ahead. Worse than asking for a less-than-perfect job is being asked to do the same. It really ties your hands and says "don't do your best." I've never understood how standards can be throttled like that. When asked for such "favors" I suggest other routes and leave myself out of it.
To the OP: cheap, quick, good, Pick two. Based on that, and your low-cost request, giving them an out for shoddy work, maybe the job isn't that bad. Give them a chance to rework it but lap the valves and it may not be so bad.
the orig. rocker assy. was well worn . actually worn out would be closer to the truth . but still getting plenty of oil . mtr. is a 62 or near to it . so full pressure oil . after the first failure , just to be safe , and be sure it wouldnt give me problems at a later date i replaced any parts that could be suspect in anyway . i f i had any concern it was that i might want to restrict the oil supply to the top ! the shop is ran by the owner . and his assistant . should know more than i ever will . but im 99.9 percent sure my end was good . ive replaced more heads than i could recall .super fun twin cam rollers and such when i couldnt get out of it !! we arnt talking brain surgery here . im a practising gynocologist for gods sake ! and i sometimes think im to careful . learned it all the hard way. i try to cut corners only when i can do it safely . as a rule i trust myself to do things im not a expert . rather than rely on a expert . the heads loaded up and ill let us al take a look together in the morning . but i think i know the only possible cause .and im aso faily sure , as before , they wont accept any blame .it should have never been assy. the first time with the very worn guide ,and ill bet the seat wasnt recut after the guide was replaced . might work 75 percent of the time !! i
To those that blame the OP for not asking for a high quality valve job let me ask this:
If all the valves have adequate margin after regrinding, the seats are not recessed after machining and the stems fit the guides without excess play, why would that be less that adequate?
Not every job needs all new parts, especially seats, if the old ones recondition OK.
Been that way forever. Now if you want to build one that will last over 100k, or just want to brag about 'all new guts', that's a different story, but most, if not all of us need that.
Quality is fitting the work to the need, not to someone else's mythical standard.
OK, off the soap box.
Took a look at your latest pics. I really doubt that the guide is that much off center. But that type of pattern could well be caused by a bent valve head. Maybe even one that was bent, then reground.
on a lighter note ; the view out my back door ! beautiful mt shasta . im guessing winter is just around the corner!
I had a similar problem with an electronics repair on a tach. If you paid by bank or credit card they will investigate and get your money back. Very easy process for me and they got all my repair money back. Had to eat the shipping. 3 times back and forth. Funny, 8 bucks for me to ship to them, 23 bucks them to me.
Whatever you do, DON'T call a lawyer. It could turn a $600 problem into a $3000 problem.
Ive learned it always cost me money learn something. good or bad its a lesson even when it pisses me off.
Ken, you might be right but, then again, what's the problem then?
no matter what caused it . the valve seized in the guide and contacted the top of the piston , which may or may not have to be replaced . no matter
, i feel that in the first place if the obviously worn out guide had been replaced . it wouldnt have added but around $20 to the parts ,very little labor , and everyone would have been far better off . maybe even happy ! just for comparisons sake . i have no idea what a guide actually cost .
One thing I've learnt when dropping parts or machinery off for repair is never say "No hurry, when you get a chance". Bites you on the bum every time.
Just a thought after reading your last post. If the valve hits the piston first it could bend the valve stem and stick the valve. Not sure that’s even possible with your setup just a thought.
Unfortunately I do not trust machine shops! Also not every head pulled off an engine needs a “ valve job”. I tore down a 340 Dodge engine , years ago, that had close to 100,000 miles on it. It was in perfect shape, but got bearing and rings. I tore the head down and it was perfect! No wear anywhere, I lapped the valves and the pattern was great! The friend I was building this engine for wanted a valve job done on it! I refused, saying I’m building this engine! 25 + years later, that engine is still running perfect! To this day, he still thinks he needed a valve job! Every time a valve job is done material is removed form the heads and valves!
Usually when a valve hits a piston the keeper came off and the valve dropped down. Or not enough clearance between piston and valve. Do to cam lift shaved heads deck height. Not sure if valve adjustment would do it probably depends on how much clearance you had to start with. Maybe rocker arm geometry or miss match parts.
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