I have a Dodge 325 Hemi and T5 5 speed trans that I would like to use in my Brookville roadster project. I've seen the adapter kits (Wilcap/Hot Heads) where they use a machined aluminum adapter to mate a GM bellhousing to the hemi with a special flywheel (steel or aluminum) to make it all work together. I've read everthing pertaining to this that I've found and I haven't seen these questions addressed. I did see they also adapt the late Mopar manual trans to the Hemi in the same manner. That might be the answer to the second question or it's being done to address input shaft length issues too. Although my 325 had an automatic, I also have a Dodge 241 with a flywheel and clutch for donor parts. Is the flywheel interchangeable? I believe the 325 has the same bellhousing bolt pattern as the later Mopar 318-360 engine family. Am I correct? I also see that Lakewood makes an adapter bellhousing to fit those engines using a T5. Here it is: ENGINE TO TRANSMISSION ADAPTER Part Number: 77-325 These engine to transmission adapters are an excellent choice for street rods, street machines or oval track applications where the use of an SFI approved bellhousing is not required. Made from .250" thick hydro- formed steel, these adapters are much stronger than factory aluminum bellhousings and allow for easier welding of brackets etc. that are usually required when doing engine swaps. NOTE: These engine to transmission adapters are NOT safety bellhousings. They do not include nor accept a block plate and do NOT meet SFI specifications. Fits Chrysler 1964-83 with 273-318-340-360 V-8. Notes: Fits 130-tooth flywheel. Transmission: GM Muncie/Saginaw, Richmond/BW & T-10, and Jerico. Bore Diameter 4.684. Depth 6.312. Fork Opening 2.50 x 3.75. Can this be made to work with my 325 using the 241 flywheel? Will there be starter issues? I assume I could make a new starter mounting plate to address this. A hydraulic throwout bearing would address any manual linkage issues. And if this is unworkable I have one more idea. I have a vintage cast aluminum adapter for a hemi to the early Ford trans. Hot Heads description: Hemi to '48 Ford & Earlier Transmission Adapter - A staple of early rodding. Used to adapt your Hemi to the '48 and earlier Ford manual transmission. Also used in many V-Drive boat applications. P/N 25002 Could I use that adapter with a machined aluminum adapter plate to fit in place of the early Ford trans in the correct thickness with the GM bolt pattern to hang the T5 there instead? Same starter, throwout bearing issues as above. My curiousity to do this needs to satisfied with some facts. The easy way is probably just do the 1-800 Visa thing but...........
Vintage, a couple of thoughts. A block adapter is required to mount a late bell, whether Mopar, gm or whatever. The block adapter will relocate the alignment dowels and provide the needed compensation for the extended crank flange. Late small block Mopar bellhousings share 4 bolts but nothing else. Most late bellhousings will mount the starter, so the flywheel must be compatible, diameter and tooth count, with the starter. This usually also creates a need for a crank flange adapter unless a one-off flywheel is used. All of the early Hemi engines (and 'poly' versions) share the same design of crank flange so stock flywheels all interchange, however, there are several diameters and several tooth counts so even with stock OEM pieces they don't always stack up into something useful. I cannot speak to the other manufactures systems but it is possible to use a stock wheel with my Mopar adapter but modifications are required. Assuming that the Lakewood housing has a place to mount the starter, then in order to use this on an early Hemi you will need a block adapter as well as a crank flange adapter. You will then need to use the 426 Hemi 130 tooth flywheel. Questions? Gary .
That pretty much makes the first idea impractical due to the cost being about the same or more with no real advantage. What do you think of my second idea with the cast aluminum adapter to the early Ford trans with an adapter plate drilled for the T5 and the correct thickness for the input shaft? What starter was used with that one? Stock? Is the 241 flywheel the same as the 325? I'm curious of what is used when using the early Ford trans. Otherwise I guess the Wilcap is proven and tested way to go.
All of the early adapters that I have seen are designed to mount to one of the OEM starter mounting plates. There are three different starter plates and each uses a different starter. IIRC, most adapters relied on the 57-58 version which is about 1.125" thick and the need the 57-58 flwheel. Carving up an alum plate to bridge the gap to your chosen trans is 'machine shop 101'. Call if I can help. .
Thanksfor the info! I'm going to pull these motors out my storage garage and check out what I've got and do some preliminary measurements and start the mock-up and mounting in my frame.
Vintage.I run a 54 chrysler 331 with a 93 mustang WC T-5 and used a willcap adapter specificly fore this combo. I know it's mail order but every part is ready and they tell you witch starter works. It went togeather purfect. 3 years later and not one problem. The same adapter will work fore youre combo. Kipp
Kippers, did you have to run the '94 Mustang or would any T-5 work? I was told the Mustang has the longest pilot shaft? Thanks
The adapter was fore the mustang. I had the trans so i dident check to see if camaro/s-10 T-5 would work. Becouse the GM swap is more common i would think they would have an adapter fore the GM also. Kipp
i have a 276 desoto and i have a mopar A833 overdrive trans, heres what i'm doing. heres how i plan to make my own adapter, i start with my stock auto bellhousing and starter spacer, i'll mill off .25" from the rear of the starter spacer, .063" from the front of the bellhousing, .093" from the rear of the bellhousing, that will give me .375" between the front of the trans and the rear of the bellhousing, i'll make my adapter from 1/2" plate, that will allow me to turn a lip 1/8" to fit snug into the auto bellhousing, and in the center of that lip i'll bore the hole to locate the trans, this will keep all correct locations for the trans, spline, disk and flywheel, if anyone sees something i over looked please speak up.
budd, just curious as to why you want to make two extra material cuts from the factory mounting surfaces. Why not build all of the needed dimensional changes into the new face plate? .
i'm just trying to keep everything as strong as i can, i have a mill of my own so its not like work really, the spacer i'm just going to remove the material from the outer edge, just in far enough to clear the bellhousing, i also plan on not removeing any material around where the starter bolts on, i'll take that extra material from the bellhousing, my way of thinking is the starter puts alot of strain on the spacer so i doint want any trouble.
Wow... I had a similar idea today - and I thought it was my own! MY thoughts were to use a Wilcap Hemi to early Ford adapter to get the right bell on, then a Dwight Bond hogshead adapter to get the T5 or Tremec to bolt up. ~Jason
Vintage, have you looked in here http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118764[/SIGPIC] http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118764 This one is for a 392 with a chevy tremec http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107758 And then there is this <TABLE class=tborder id=post1354026 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=thead id=currentPost style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e5e5e5 0px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e5e5e5 1px solid; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; BORDER-LEFT: #e5e5e5 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e5e5e5 1px solid"><!-- status icon and date --> 07-08-2006, 04:18 AM <!-- / status icon and date --></TD><TD class=thead style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e5e5e5 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e5e5e5 1px solid; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; BORDER-LEFT: #e5e5e5 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e5e5e5 1px solid" align=right>#33 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e5e5e5 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e5e5e5 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e5e5e5 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e5e5e5 0px solid" width=175>Wilcap<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_1354026", true); </SCRIPT> FNG Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: PISMO BEACH Posts: 16 </TD><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_1354026 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e5e5e5 1px solid"><!-- icon and title --> Re: HEMI Tech- Transmission adapters, flywheels, starters <HR style="COLOR: #e5e5e5; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e5e5e5" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->First off let me say I'm not here to shill or spam. I'm only posting this because I was asked to. I do appreciate the fact someone asked my opinion and hope this post is helpful to you and the rest of the HAMB. 1st question is what engine do I have and how do I identify it? Thankfully Chrysler used a common block and crank shaft pattern on the Dodge, Desoto and Chrysler Polys and Hemis EXCEPT for the 1951 to 1953 331c.i. Chrysler, also called an extended block. The extended block has a round pattern that is similar to an S.A.E. pattern found on industrial engines and uses a cast starter housing that bolts vertically to the engine. One word of advise; don't lose the starter housing as it can be tough to find. The rest of the Hemis use a bolt pattern is common to the Chrysler LA Small Block and the new 5.7L Hemi BUT the dowel pins are in the different locations and the crankshaft stickout distance is different. And while you can bolt a LA bellhousing up to the early Hemi, there's a lot of grief involved in getting it right and even more if you don't. Also the 426 Hemi flywheel has the correct bolt pattern but does not register on the flywheel correctly and can't be used (Sorry Dale). The Donovan 392 aluminum block uses the same bolt pattern/crank but with additional holes. The crankshafts all share a common 8 bolt pattern and all used the outside diameter of the flange to register the flywheel. One bolt hole is offset. They all used 7/16" bolts to attach the flywheel and stock they are not threaded. The holes are drilled to a few thousands over the tap drill size for 1/2-20 NF. If your going to install a manual trans its worth the time to tap the holes. Use a good sharp 3 or 4 flute tap and good tapping fluid and keep it square to the flange. If you get it wrong or don't like the way the threads come out you can always run nuts behind the flange as security. Just don't break the tap off. The pilot bearing bore diameter in the crank can be 3/4", 15/16" or can be bored for a ball bearing or may have no bore at all. Torque spec on the crankshaft bolts is 55-60 ft-lbs for the stock 7/16-20 fasteners. Engine is neutral balance. 2nd question is why even bother with an adapter? The Hemi is designed to use a transmission adapter. The stock automatics used a transmission adapter, sometimes called a starter plate. The crankshaft stick out is longer to compensate for the adapter plate. The stock transmission were not bad for their day but today we are so used modern transmissions that I doubt anyone would really be satisfied with the performance of the stock units. And while they are not complex transmissions, finding parts can be hard. The Fluid Drive was first introduced in 1938 and was really a fluid coupling with a dry clutch and a 3 or 4 speed transmission bolted to the back of it. There were various schemes used to shift and the driver used the dry clutch to shift between forward and reverse. Sounds like a good idea but the fluid coupling, flywheel, disk, and pressure plate weigh a lot and didn't offer any torque multiplication. In 51 came the Fluid Torque with a true torque converter then the 2 speed Powerflite in 54 and finally the 3 speed cast iron Torqueflite in 56. The cast iron Torqueflite shared some of the basic design with the later A-904 introduced in 1960 but weighs in at over 200lbs. There are plenty of adapters out there and plenty of people making them. They range from guys pushing around a shopping cart at the swap meet to big warehouse distributors and the rest of us in between. Chances are if they've be around for a while then their product works. I haven't seen everything thats out there but I've seen a lot of them. I can really only be specific about my product but I believe most of this applied to the majority of adapters on the market now for the early Hemis. The 331 extended block is a entirely different animal and below is a section just for that. So which transmission is best? With the choice of adapters it's pretty wide open. Right now for the conventional block you can bolt up Chrysler small block auto and manual, the Chevy auto or manual, the Ford small block manual and the Ford flathead trans (32-48). I hope to have the Ford small block auto done soon. There are no adapters now available for the BB Mopar or Ford(s) that I'm aware of. Mopar adapters place the starter in the stock small block position and may require the block be clearance for the starter to fit. Mopar auto adapters need to run a the neutral balance torque converter from the 318 and make sure the flexplate and convert bolts are on the same bolt circle before installing. Chevy Auto adapters are available for the Powerglide, TH200,350,400, etc. and the 700r4. the starter can be put on either side but starter placement on the passenger side (USA) most of the time will require an oil filter adapter or remote. Adapters are available for the BOP auto as well. Ford/Chevy/BOP manual adapters use the stock transmission bellhousing and use a special thicker flywheel to bring the flywheel out to the correct height and generally place the starter on the side that was stock for the bellhousing (pass side on Chevy and Ford, drivers side for Buick, Olds, Pontiac) but specials can be made. On our Chevy manual adapter the 10.5" Chevy bellhousing works best and any of the Ford SB bells fit on the Ford SB adapter. Best practice is to use the bellhousing/throw out bearing/arm that was with the transmission if possible. All of the early Ford (1932-1948) adapters (Wilcap Offenhauser, Cragar and others) used the stock starter and flywheel. These are the only adapters that use the stock flywheel/starter combination due to the fact that the stock ring gear dimension is bigger in diameter than the inside diameter of the modern bellhousings. The stock flywheel /starter can be used to with the early Ford adapter and a flathead to Chevy or Ford adapter to run those transmissions but the second adapter may need to be cut down for correct throw out bearing operation. The flathead Dodge I6 flywheel interchanges with the Hemi. The ring gear changed in 56 from a 146 to 172 teeth when the 12V starter was introduced. All of the early Ford adapters were 2 piece designs that used a plate that bolted to the block and then the bellhousing bolted to it. The Wilcap adapter uses a stock Chrysler adapter or starter plate (3/4" version). 331 Extended block adapters are fairly simple plates and all use the stock starter/flywheel (other than our adapter for the A-727 which uses a supplied flexplate). Unlike the conventional blocks, the extended block manual adapters bolt directly to the transmission and don't use a bellhousing. The GM adapters are for the "Muncie" bolt pattern and so will accept the Saginaw, Muncie, BW T5, etc. The Ford adapters are available for the Top Loader 65-78 and T5 and can be made for the 55-64 transmission as well. Also available is the Cad-LaSalle adapter and the adapter to run the A-727 auto with the bellhousing cut off. I have built one for the GM 4l60E but this is a computerized 4 speed overdrive and requires a separate controller for the trans. The Mopar A833 manual can be done but if your crank has the 3/4" pilot hole then it's a real problem due to the fact that the input pilot is also 3/4". The early Ford 32-48 adapter is no longer in production but they show up on ebay and at swap meets. Because of the length of the input shaft, the transmission actually sits inside of the bellhousing extension on the 331. The big issue with all of the extended block 331 adapters is the throw out bearing. The throw out bearing arm can be bent to work but still there may be some cutting on the block or starter housing. The best bet is to go with a hydraulic bearing like the McLeod or Howe. Another idea is to mount a push slave cylinder on the adapter plate operate the fork that way. If you do use a mechanical arm use the long forged GM arm. Troys Machine in Boise is still cutting the back of the block down on the 331 so that's always an option. They weld a standard Hemi flange to the back after machining off the extension. As I said before, you can get the Mopar and Chevy adapters from a number of sources. Most of the adapters I've seen on the market are fine and will work without any problems but use your common sense when shopping; The dowel pins have to be used to align the engine to the transmission. Bolt holes are not held to a tight enough tolerance. The adapter plate has to be flat AND parallel. There is a difference between flat an parallel; flat means the surface is all on the same plane with no dish or bow or bend to it. This can't be measure with a caliper or micrometer. The surface has to be leveled then indicated in. Parallel can be checked with a micrometer but the only critical dimension in the area where mating faces meet. Billet plate doesn't come from supplier flat unless it comes with both surfaces ground or milled. The rotating assembly has to have a positive register on the crankshaft and should register on the crankshaft using the same method as the factory. Using only the crankshaft bolts to register or align a flexplate or flywheel WILL NOT WORK AND IS DANGEROUS!! Flywheel/clutch disk/flexplate explosions are nothing to screw around with. Best case is you'll destroy a lot of expensive parts and the worst case is you, your passenger, or some innocent bystander are DEAD. Scattershields, transmission blankets and flexplate shields werent invented because they look cool. Those are all tombstone innovations, stuff that gets made because someone got killed or seriously injured. If your really going to go fast, spend the money and buy some protection. As far as the machining, CNC is great but only as good as the operator, the program, and the fixturing. Even when all of thats good, stuff happens and the seller should be willing and able to stand behind the product and get any problem corrected. I am far from perfect but if an issue comes up, I'll do my best to get it taken care of. But the bottom line is you should spend your money with whoever you feel comfortable with. Read the instructions. Twice. Call the manufacturer if your not sure about something. When installing the adapter or any trans/bellhousing for that matter, make certain the dowel pins are in place and not mushroomed over. Chrysler pins are 1/2" undersize (-.002") but don't use hardened dowels if you need to replace them. Clean the back of the block and tap run a chaser through the holes. If you have a broken bolt in the block, spend the time to get it out. If the threads go away during extraction use a helicoil but don't skip bolts. Check the crank for dings or burrs and file them off if needed. Check the fasteners and make sure theyre not going to bottom out in the hole before they clamp to the plate or bellhousing. Install the adapter plate and then the flexplate/flywheel. Check the crank bolts and nuts for clearance around the rear main seal and block. If your putting the pilot bearing into the crank make sure the old pilot bearing is out first. Trial fit as many of the pieces as you can before final assembly. Check the starter to ring gear engagement before instaing the trans/bellhousing. The pilot bearing should be a tight press fit into the crank. Use washers on everything and locktite on the crank bolts. 3/8-16 bolts torque to 31 ft-lbs on grade 5 (3 lines on the head) and 35 on grade 8s (5 lines). 7/16-14 are 50 lbs and 57 ft-lbs. Don't use grade 2 or non-grade bolts. Take your time, do it right the first time and stop if something doesn't look right. The book Ron Cerridono wrote for Tex Smith Publishing is worth the money if your building a hemi. It covers most of this and a lot more. If there something I can help with or you have any questions, email me from the button on my website Wilcap.com or call. I don't get over here to the HAMB as much as I should but I check my PM as often os I can. I hope this is of some use to you and the HAMB and thanks for asking for my opinion. <!-- / message --><!-- attachments --> <FIELDSET class=fieldset><LEGEND>Attached Thumbnails</LEGEND> </FIELDSET> <!-- / attachments --><!-- sig -->__________________ PM <!-- / sig --> </TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e5e5e5 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e5e5e5 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e5e5e5 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e5e5e5 1px solid"> </TD><TD class=alt1 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e5e5e5 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e5e5e5 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e5e5e5 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e5e5e5 1px solid" align=right><!-- controls --> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Thanks for the links. Lots of great info I had found and read some of them but not all. I was curious about the Lakewood adapter bellhousing specifically because i figured I could it would be a close fit and I could redrill it easier for mounting on my 325 but it doesn't sound like it would work any better or be any easier to adapt than a Chevy bellhousing. My main problem with the 325 is the lack of a flywheel and starter plate which would be solved with the Wilcap kit. My hemi/early Ford adapter didn't pan out eiher. It looked close until I tried it on the block. It's too big and I suspect it is for the late block???? Abomination, your idea to use the Dwight Bond hogshead adapter makes sense and is worth looking into.
Yepper. ') The early Ford adapter, with a hogshead, followed by a T5... a really BEEFY T5. One with internals from these guys: http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.asp That way it'll handle the torque of that Hemi and you won't crater it! ~Jason
jeez i am glad i never threw anything away, just this week i pulled a new offenhauser to muncie adapter out of a pile of ole 92 parts, fits my T5 just fine and the back of the current 392, i have had the starter on both sides of hemi's over the past 40 years
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