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Hot Rods A First Timers 1926/27 Roadster Build

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Rynothealbino, Jul 23, 2017.

  1. The length of the engine bay was starting to concern me as it appears you haven't determined a firewall to radiator measurement yet. I too like your unique front end set up but think you are painting yourself into a corner. JW
     
    raven and patmanta like this.
  2. This T Roadster has a flat channel cross member with axle out front. It belongs to Daddio211. JW
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  3. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    I'll have to go through his build thread again and see if I can learn any lessons. I am definitely starting to think along the lines of flat crossmember with the axle just barely out front of the shell. That basic setup will also get me set up right for a track nose. The trick will be getting enough room to mount everything within the wheelbase / engine bay.
     
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  4. Beau
    Joined: Jul 2, 2009
    Posts: 1,883

    Beau
    Member

    Cool build. I see you met Kenny. Super nice guy. I bought a tub from him a while ago. I lived by Millville for a while.

    I just picked up a new body. Can't wait to build it. 20615965_10211876591382058_8112752460369025602_o.jpg
     
  5. You seem wedded to the upside down front cross-member idea, but from where I sit, all I can see is a big thing in the way of pulleys or anything else in the front of the engine. You could sit an engine a lot further forward if it wasn't there. To me, a dropped axle and flat cross-member would make life a lot easier (logical.) Even a bulldog mount for the spring.

    Anyway, that's just my 2 cents.

    (Edit, I see things may be changing...)
     
    26 T Ford RPU likes this.
  6. Cool project...I like your plans so far.
     
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  7. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    @Beau I'm not sure if I know a Kenny from the Millville area. I got the bodies from Ken up in Coates...but I'm guessing that's a different person?
     
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  8. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    I just checked my contacts again. I'm guessing you are talking about the other Ken from Oronoco? I should just call the car the Ken Special at this point.
     
  9. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    Last night I managed to drag the engine in from where it's been for over a year now, sitting in the bed of a project truck, under a tarp. Don't judge...at least my lawn mower is H.A.M.B. friendly.

    IMG_20170808_185159647.jpg

    I hung it in the engine bay just to see what I was working with. I'm hoping I can slip it in just under the upper hump in the firewall, with a recess for the distributor.

    IMG_20170808_211153709.jpg

    I am hoping to get a chance to start on a flat crossmember tonight, and get a better idea of if the pulley will go behind or above the crossmember. I was told it is very easy to mount the engine too low. Does anybody have recommendations for crank centerline height? The top of my frame rails are 12" from the floor and the pinion should be around 16" (total guess based on 7.50-16 tires on a 8" Ford axle).
     
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  10. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,749

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Hanging that sucker in there like that tells you something, but a very little something. You need to get its (and the transmission too, ideally) weight on the frame to see where your rails ACTUALLY sit under weight.

    Put it where it needs to go, firewall cuts be damned.
     
  11. I set my motor so the pan rail was level with the top of the frame (At the front). From that pic of your motor it is clear that things are too short in the engine bay and with no spare room in the body you don't want to eat into that unless you are less than 5'' tall. If you use a flat cross member and have the crank pulley above it the motor will sit very high.JW
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    Perfect! That was just the picture / description I needed. Looks like your engine tucks right about where I want mine to be. From that picture it looks like your body is off the frame a little? Or am I just seeing things?
     
    loudbang and 26 T Ford RPU like this.
  13. You are right, its about an inch up. Its how it was built in the late 40's so that's how its staying but I have now built a small filler strip. I have lots of ground clearance but that will change with different motors. JW
     
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  14. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    I still did not get time to work on the crossmember, at this point it will have to wait till after Speed Week. I did get to play with the engine position though. I tucked the engine down and back till it looked about right. I am just under the bump in the firewall, and the back of the engine is dead flush to the lower part of the firewall. The pan rail is about 1" above the top of the frame rail, putting my crank level at around 13". The oil pan is around 6" off of the ground. This seems a little low to me. Any thoughts?

    IMG_20170809_184310091.jpg

    Since I have one on hand, I am playing with setups using a 1928/29 grille shell. My wheelbase is still set at 103.5" Once I got the engine in with no crossmember or spring to worry about it was very clear that should my concern was misplaced this whole time. What I should have been worried about was water pump + fan to radiator clearance. With all the different options I have of spring / crossmember / axle combinations I can make something work suspension wise. Just for the record my existing crossmember actually did fit. You would probably have to pull the harmonic balancer off to pull the engine, but it could work.

    Anyways, here is setup #1.

    IMG_20170809_184425653.jpg

    I slipped the grille shell right behind the axle. This setup would have a flat crossmember ahead of the pulley, and the radiator would sit right on top of it. I could run a 23" tall radiator. This would also be an easy swap to a track nose with a different radiator. The problem shows up when I measure for the radiator thickness. I only get 4.5" from the front of the water pump to the front of the grille shell. Keep in mind this is with the shell touching the axle...that would obviously have to change. I could stretch the wheelbase to 104" MAX, and maybe slide the engine back another half inch, but anything more than this is going to really start to chew up interior room I don't have.

    I love the look, but my question is how much (or little) room do I need between the water pump and radiator? I am figuring a 3" thick core, and a 2" ish deep fan (1" out front of the pump), so I am left with 1/2" of clearance. From the research I have done that is enough, but just barely. I could spec out a thinner radiator, or maybe make a trick fan that is set back towards the belt? Why does no one make one of these? It seems like it would solve a lot of problems for a lot of people. On a single pulley setup I could easily push the fan 1"+ towards the engine. What am I missing here? Has anyone considered this before?

    IMG_20170809_184541632_HDR.jpg

    The other option is the same flat crossmember, but hanging the radiator and grille shell out over the axle.

    IMG_20170809_185105982.jpg

    This gives me 7" between the front of the water pump and the front of the grille shell. Heck, I could even shorten up the wheelbase with this option. I do have to shorten up the height of the radiator to give me suspension travel though. Or run a dropped axle, but keep the ride height the same. Every inch of drop (axle) that I put in, is another inch that I can add back to the radiator. As it is I could run a 20" tall radiator and have roughly 3" for suspension travel. How much travel room do I need to leave myself?

    This would definitely need to have good bump stops to keep the axle from destroying the radiator. Is a 20" tall (including the tanks) aluminum radiator adequate to cool a mild 327? I am pretty sure it is, I just want to be sure. There is a local radiator shop that can make me a custom USA built radiator for a very reasonable price, so I can really have a lot of options here.

    IMG_20170809_185151321_HDR.jpg
     
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  15. bct
    Joined: Apr 4, 2005
    Posts: 3,099

    bct
    Member

    Personally id stick with the basics. Drop axle. Reverse eyes. Aftermarket cross with 1" drop. Proven awesome by many . It is your first build. Dont be shy to add to your frame. Done properly and boxed it is fine . Plenty of 32 rails out there welded together.
    Your contoured frame is very nice BTW.
     
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  16. Beau
    Joined: Jul 2, 2009
    Posts: 1,883

    Beau
    Member

    I meant Ken in Coates. I myself lived in Millville and worked in Mazeppa. I still have stuff stored in Zumbro Falls. I'd love to see your build.

    Also, put the radiator out back ;)
     
    brEad likes this.
  17. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,749

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Stop wasting your time and thought energy on putting the radiator over the axle. It's a bad idea unless you're running spring-over.

    You've got the look and the function right here. DO THIS:

    [​IMG]

    28/29 shells look awesome with 26/27 bodies IMO.

    Grab that radiator you've got and mock up with it.

    Put some mounts on that block and some temporary mounts on the frame and put the weight on it.
     
  18. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    I'm with you @bct that would be the proven route. I really love the shape of an undropped axle though, with a '32 heavy obviously being perfection. At least on this type of car. I'm told I have very finicky taste lol.

    @Beau I think you mean something like this?

    AMODRDSTRyellowroadster.jpg

    The Bomb Factory Digger comes to mind. Tell you what, I have a spare frame and body...I even tracked down a 302 GMC...you just bring a box, and some spindle mounts and we can get working on it.
     
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  19. raven
    Joined: Aug 19, 2002
    Posts: 4,624

    raven
    Member

    Yeah, but he's not running a radiator either. You've received some good advice in this thread. I built a 27 roadster on a modified T frame. I stretched the wheel base to 106" with the front axle in front of the Model A grille shell and used a modified A front cross member. The spring attaches to the split bones behind the axle. The extra wheel base length gives you better control when under 'duress'. If you can keep all of the engine in front of the firewall, that's good. The T doesn't have a lot of leg room from the factory. Pay attention to the good advice you get here. It will save you a lot of time and headache in the long run. You seem like the kind of guy that has perfection tendencies, that is good, but for the love of God, don't overthink things and be flexible with the plan while you are building it. There is a reason why clear paths of builds have lasted over the years, because they work over the more obscure ideas.
    r
     
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  20. Looking good and working through it well. I wish my T wasn't in bits as I could get you all the measurement you are likely to need with a SB Chev and an A radiator and shell. With your fan, you will have more clearance at the top compared to the bottom so don't just set clearance at the water pump. Don't set your wheel base at this stage, make it all work then tell us what you have. JW
     
  21. The IH is a beast!! The 2a is also rather fine. You have a well rounded stable sir! Will enjoy this build.


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
  22. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    3a, but thanks. I'm not sure if the neighbors appreciate it that much though.
     
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  23. Details details ;) it's just a windshield. Still running the go-devil? An early clean 2a is on the list of things to get, though a nice early wagoneer would be more usable.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  24. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    Still running the Go Devil, 6V electrical system. It just rolled over to 27k miles. The best part is it has only been totaled once:

    494622-1385246039-7de4060ec5da4815b35e2ba5be5366eb.jpg

    I'm still kind of bummed out about that one. Other drivers :(

    I started cutting up a 2"x2"x.188 wall into a crossmember after work. I left it a little long for now, and I did not get a chance to drill the center hole in it yet.

    IMG_20170810_171714377.jpg

    Once it was cleaned up the tapered Model T leaf pack fits like it was made for it.

    IMG_20170810_173427410.jpg

    It will go roughly here to all the way forward under the grille shell. As long as it's lower than the radiator and gives me enough room to put a fan belt in I will be happy.

    IMG_20170810_173747775.jpg

    I had a thought regarding radiator clearance too. I was thinking of flipping the flange on the water pump around backwards and pushing it in back towards the pump. I would have to source a pulley that is shallower to line the belt back up, and open up the I.D. on it and the fan to fit the flipped flange. Short of all this horsing around does anyone know of a fan that has a flat front plane to it?

    IMG_20170810_173907199.jpg

    It's a lot of screwing around for only 1/2" of extra clearance, but I am pretty committed to not hacking up the firewall or stretching the wheelbase any more than necessary. I know a longer wheelbase makes everything easier, but it's just not the look I am going for. I figure I will be holding on to this car for a long time so I might was well be happy with it instead of making compromises before I even really get started on it.
     
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  25. I would worry about the wheel base later and for now get the engine bay working without a stack of compromises, simple clean and functional is what's needed. My wheel base is 105'' with the front spring over the axle and the rear axle centred where it should be for the T body. I just cant see it being done any shorter with the axle out front. JW
     
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  26. AndersF
    Joined: Feb 16, 2013
    Posts: 791

    AndersF
    Member

    I dont know if there are a difference in lenght on coupes and rodsters.
    But this is how i made mine to keep the wheelbase down and still have place
    for the radiator behind the frontaxle to keep it low.
    My engine is a 55 Dodge with the distributor in the back and i have a manual trans.
    To give me more trouble it chanelled 3 inch to.
    But i going to have the accelerator over the trans on this setup.
    I set the engine to have 6 inch groundclearence to oilpan.
    That give me a transmission that stick 3-4 inch up on the floor.
    Most of the bellhousing is under where the orginal floor kick up to the firewall.
    And to clear the distributor i reversed the upper half of the firewall.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  27. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,749

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    You're going to drive yourself crazy and broke chasing an inch for your radiator. Just put the radiator where it needs to go and build the frame to fit it. The kind of stuff you're talking with the fan is what you get into when you're trying to wedge stuff into a stock frame; you do not have a stock frame anymore.

    Also, I know you like the stance as it sits. I agree, it looks great. But I don't think you're accounting for the weight of the engine still.
    • Tack things together
    • Put the suspension together
    • Put the radiator in there
    • Mock up Engine Mounts or put a couple pieces of tubing or some 4x4's across the frame
    • Gently lower the engine down onto the frame until the chain goes slack (do not go totally slack or disconnect it)
    • Observe and document
     
  28. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    Sorry boys, I'm at a family reunion this weekend, so progress is on hold temporarily...

    IMG_20170812_134331910~2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
    kidcampbell71, Beau, patmanta and 5 others like this.
  29. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 38,669

    loudbang
    Member

    Remember to sunblock the "Privates" if you are wearing shorts :rolleyes:
     
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  30. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    Jeans for me...I'm not that brave.
     
    loudbang likes this.

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