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Hot Rods A First Timers 1926/27 Roadster Build

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Rynothealbino, Jul 23, 2017.

  1. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 39,585

    loudbang
    Member

    Check how high the tie rod gets with suspension movement and possibly a bit forward and aft movement when turning first to see really how much clearance you have. o_O
     
    The37Kid likes this.
  2. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    If anything I would like it to be higher up than it is to give me a little more droop. If I flip the stock arms left to right and then inverted the balls back to the top I would probably come close to being over the top of the spring and crossmember, which could work nicely. That or I switch to a round tube crossmember underneath the spring and tuck it really close to the front axle...but i was thinking my lower radiator hose may slip through there. I really need to get a set of later spindles in my hands before I re-invent the wheel.
     
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  3. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    Quick update for the day. I started by cutting the ends of the frame rails square while keeping them as long as I could. I can always take more off later, but I figured longer is a good starting point for now. Easier than going the other way. Then I used the inside edge of the framerail and the existing crossmember rivet holes to mark new holes.

    IMG_20170730_185303009_HDR.jpg

    I drilled them out to 5/16 for now and threw a bolt in to bolt the crossmember in. Before I get crucified, remember everything you are about to see is temporary only. I am just trying to get an idea of how this will all look before I commit to any one direction. The frame rails are literally ratchet strapped to the rear subrails right now. Highly scientific.

    IMG_20170730_184938513.jpg

    I have around 27" of room between the upper part of the firewall and the crossmember. This is already getting tight and I haven't even had the engine anywhere close to the car.

    I cut off the spring perches, figuring I can at least save the stud portion of it. The bushings were beyond trashed. I think the only way of saving these is to sleeve these somehow. I eyeballed the alignment in the chop saw so I know they are exactly the same. :rolleyes:

    IMG_20170730_191242234.jpg

    Before I cut them up I measured the perch width to be right around 34.250". Can anyone confirm this? Is this the number I should be trying to replicate with my new perches? Or should I go in or out a bit? I am using a tapered Model T front spring. I probably will not need to reverse the eyes.

    IMG_20170730_195718395.jpg

    I threw the cut off bits on top of the bones just to get a visual of if something like that would work or not. I didn't really think it would work, but it looks like it has potential. The width was actually pretty close to right and I think everything will clear. I might clean things up and tack them to the bones tomorrow.

    I also tacked the cut off ball joint balls to the side of the frame rails. I spaced them using a factory hole in the frame and could not figure out why both sides would not line up right. I apparently forgot that the frame rails are ratchet strapped to the body.

    IMG_20170730_194353190.jpg

    IMG_20170730_195857913.jpg

    IMG_20170730_200047964.jpg

    IMG_20170730_195738288.jpg

    It also looks like I have a lead on some different spindles. This tie rod over the frame thing is not going to work. Maybe tomorrow I can get the front off of the jackstands.
     
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  4. Interesting setup, I think there is a reason ( or more) its not more popular, keen to see how it works out. JW
     
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  5. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    Ha ha, me too. It is definitely staying bolted / tacked together for a while while I sort out the details. Worst case I ditch the crossmember, reverse the eyes and do a Duane Spencer / Rolling Bones setup. One reason for going this route is to get more up travel before the spring binds and hits. I also can get the car pretty low using slightly rearranged stock parts...I just like the thought of that. The big reason is I am trying to keep the front roll center higher than the rear roll center. I might be too high at this point though. I'll have to get the rear mocked up and see how high the panhard bar / Watts Link is going to be. Does anyone have thoughts on the subject?
     
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  6. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    I did a little more hacking on things...

    IMG_20170731_171251036.jpg

    Tacked on some temporary hardware...

    IMG_20170731_173619887.jpg

    Look Ma, no jack stands!

    IMG_20170731_174423616.jpg

    IMG_20170731_174441813.jpg

    These will need to be cut up some more and sleeved, and pushed out 1/8" per side. I have them lined up right on the weld in the wishbone for now. There is room to assemble stuff right now, but an extra 1/4" would not kill me. I eyeballed the wheelbase at 102"... glad I chopped the bare minimum off the frame. I'll probably end up pushing the frame rails forward on the body if I need more room for the engine, limiting myself to 103.5" at the longest.

    IMG_20170731_174522618.jpg
     
  7. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    I braced up my rear subrails and marked out the cuts I might potentially cut out of them.

    IMG_20170731_200557282.jpg

    For now I cut them out square 1.5" off the bottom within the semi-circle so I can finish them out later. I am just trying to get a feel for overall ride height right now. I'm thinking I will have to sweep the cutout up and over the current top of the subrails by the time I give myself room for up travel.

    IMG_20170731_203058709.jpg

    I think this is pretty close to the overall stance I am shooting for. I want the rear tires to still be under the top of the quarters, but not by much. I really need to get some weight on the front and see how much rake I get back.

    IMG_20170731_203025041.jpg

    IMG_20170731_203037477.jpg

    IMG_20170731_203049310.jpg

    I may need more depth for the radiator too. I can stretch the front a bit and still stay at a 103.5" WB. Does anybody know the depth of a Deuce shell off hand?

    IMG_20170731_203221088.jpg
     
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  8. Really enjoying where this seems to be going. It is hard to be original when people have been building hot rods for 70+ years but you seem to have a handle on it.
     
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  9. There are several cool things about this build and the one that jumps out the most is your vision. :cool::cool::) JW
     
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  10. Tim_with_a_T
    Joined: Apr 30, 2011
    Posts: 1,077

    Tim_with_a_T
    Member

    In my opinion, this car is begging for a track nose....
     
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  11. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    Agreed, but that is beyond my current skill level. I do have a shrinking stump, I but not enough practice with it to pull a full nose off. Looking at an early picture of @thunderbirdesq 's car I know if I can make it look good with a traditional grillshell, it will only get better once it gets a nose job later.

    adcf23fb-0fdb-40a3-84b3-5345b71cf92d_zpsf95aff9e.jpg

    Can @The37Kid tell me if the grillshell off of a '29 steelback is the same as a 28/29 shell? I have a rough one kicking around somewhere...
     
  12. A Boner
    Joined: Dec 25, 2004
    Posts: 6,246

    A Boner
    Member

    Do you have enough castor built into the front crossmember/spring and axle?
     
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  13. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    Not right now. The spring will be mounted perpendicular to the radius arms when it is at ride height to reduce binding. Then I will end up pie cutting the castor into the radius arms after that.
     
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  14. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    I went over to a neighbors house yesterday to try to track down some parts. I mentioned something about a Schroeder steering box and he told me he has one laying around somewhere. After finding it he said I could take it home to see if it would work at all. Unfortunately it wont...its way to wide and its the 6:1 ratio.

    IMG_20170801_191650178.jpg

    I did dig out that '29 Steelback radiator and threw it on the car. It's obviously not on straight or at the right height. I would definitely need to push the axle ahead and maybe even push the crossmember back a bit to run a full height radiator. There won't be enough room to fit the lower radiator hose under the crossmember either. If I knew I would run a stock based grill shell this still might be the ticket for what I am doing. I might be forced to go to a flat crossmember, or stick the spring over the axle just like Henry did, but then hiding it behind a track nose. This car does really seem like its begging for a track nose...

    IMG_20170801_192344559.jpg

    IMG_20170801_192359865.jpg

    I'm off to go chase down another lead on some steering and brake parts tonight. The tie rod over the axle is really starting to cause me problems.
     
  15. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    Here is tonight's haul; F1 hubs, backing plates, trashed drums, shock mounts, and steering box. I am still trying to decide if I want to do bolt on steering arms with my current spindles or get some 32-34 spindles, or do F1 spindles...too many options.

    IMG_20170802_212417039.jpg
     
  16. doliak
    Joined: Nov 14, 2007
    Posts: 166

    doliak
    Member

    How about a whippet shell?

    Sent from my SM-G935V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  17. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    Now there is a thought... Does anyone have a link to that dry lakes / track 26/27 roadster from a few years back. Mystery past, bare metal, roll bar, Whippet shell, earlier ('25) turtle deck? I have not been able to find it.


    Sent from my Moto G Play using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  18. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,317

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

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  19. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    64 DODGE 440 and loudbang like this.
  20. manyolcars
    Joined: Mar 30, 2001
    Posts: 8,536

    manyolcars

    Ryno you are doing awesome work. Go go go
     
  21. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,761

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Couple things, one, I know you said this was temporary, but you're not going to weld your hardware on like this, right? You're going to put tabs or sleeves for the hardware on the crossmember, correct?

    [​IMG]

    Two, I would strongly suggest that you move your axle forward so it clears the space you need for your shell and radiator. All that work to do that neeto spring-behind setup just to have it bopping your radiator on the chin is going to drive you crazy later in the build. It can be difficult enough to contend with passing your hoses by the crossmember as well as finding a radiator that fits and allows your shell to sit below the firewall line.

    [​IMG]

    Also, an observation, there's nothing preventing the axle from shearing the nose off the car other than the tie rod hitting the fan or the frame digging into the road, currently, as it sits (under load & hitting hard).

    Use the F1 spindles if you have the F1 brakes complete with hubs. They will take some grinding to prep for deep drop arms, which I would suggest as it gets your tie rod under your bones.
     
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  22. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    @patmanta Yes, tabs sleeves or U-bolts. My attic in the garage is ladder access only right now, and the car was in the way... I think that's where my bucket of early Ford hardware is anyways.

    I'm thinking if I play the shock length right that will be my failsafe on something catastrophic happening up front. That or beefy radiator mounts with a built in bump stops?

    When you say clear the radiator do you mean sit out in front of it? I was really trying to stick to a shorter wheelbase... Hence the temporary hardware.

    As far as f1 spindles go is there a write up on them? I've seen guys use 2 passesnger side arms, but are they cutting the built in arm off and bolting arms through the boss? Will model A arms work here by chance? Then I still need a hoop for push pull. Like I said, there are almost too many options. Until I sort it out I'll probably just pop the tie rod off.
     
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  23. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,761

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    A bump stop is not a bad idea, but you're taking away at least an inch away from your travel/radiator space with the steel and the rubber needed for said stop.

    The further along you get, the more you're going to want for fewer obstacles to placing and sourcing your radiator. It's something you can paint yourself into a corner with easily on a build this ambitious and end up having to get yourself a custom made radiator on what's otherwise a budget build.

    Really, IMO you'd have been better off running a suicide perch out front of the frame and placing the radiator behind the front crossmember. This would make everything easier and probably cheaper. 27" is not a lot of room to work with.

    [​IMG]

    I think you should take a look at the Hinman Roadster, here's the thread:
    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...oadster-drag-roadster-land-speed-car.1002228/

    I REALLY like your vision, btw, and I'd really like to see you succeed!
     
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  24. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,761

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    As for the F1 stuff, I've got a set and you can go a few ways with them as far as steering. The way I've got on one of my projects currently is 2 passenger spindles, hacked, with drop arms bolted on.

    If you want straight arms, you can run two driver side spindles but I haven't done that yet.

    I think the Model A stuff is smaller than the F1 so no, it won't fit.

    @Beau became a bit of an authority on the F1 spindles and brakes in his build.

    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/modified-build-finally-it-runs-and-drives.667069/

    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...-on-model-a-axle-what-steering-set-up.683623/

    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...on-ford-f1-model-a-spindle-brake-swap.690128/
     
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  25. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    I have come to the conclusion if I want to keep my front roll center up higher, I really only have 2 options that I like. One is to stick with the direction I am going, but center the axle below a stock based (Duece, T, A, Whippet) grille like it is "supposed" to be, and just make it all fit. Option 2 is to do it spring over axle on a slim perch / crossmember and put the radiator right behind it, and run the skinnyish track nose the car is begging for. Here is another picture of the Eliminator that shows it's front setup better:

    [​IMG]

    As well as a couple pictures of the Johnny Hartman roadster, which definitely turns my crank.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Sent from my Moto G Play using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  26. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    I picked up a pair of N.O.S. 1932-34 spindles tonight. Maybe next time I'll try the full F1 setup.

    IMG_20170804_202117443.jpg
     
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  27. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    Not much progress over the weekend. Busy preparing for a family gathering and our trip out to Bonneville this next weekend. I did pulled the tie rod off and stretched the wheelbase out to 103.5" just to have a look. I also popped the radiator out of the shell so I could put the shell on the car.

    IMG_20170805_203605338.jpg IMG_20170805_203629996.jpg IMG_20170805_203808409.jpg

    If I go this direction I probably need to chop an inch or so out of the shell and obviously make room for the axle, or possibly slip the whole assembly back enough to get behind the axle...which gives me engine clearance problems.

    I think I can plant my rear roll center 8-10" off of the ground whether I use a watts linkage or panhard bar. Right now my front roll center would be around 16" off the ground. I'm just shooting from the hip here, but I get the feeling that this is too high in absolute terms, as well as in relation to the rear. If I go to a flat crossmember, reverse the eyes, drop the shackle mounts, the front roll center will be around 12" off the ground.

    If I keep the radiator over the axle, I could run a dropped axle (probably won't reverse the eyes or drop the shackle mounts) and that would let me run a full height radiator. I have tracked down a good 1928/29 radiator, and a '32 radiator, as well as a damaged Henry shell, so I have some options to check out.
     
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  28. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,761

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    I still say that you need to throw that axle out in front of the radiator or put the radiator behind the crossmember. From the look of that mockup, I see a car that looks awesome sitting still, but won't have enough upward travel in the suspension without smacking something important when it's going down the road.

    Why did you buy a set of early spindles? Are you planning to drill juice plates to fit them? You may soon discover that you'd have saved yourself some time and money by buying a catalog set of drop arms and spindles there if not.
     
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  29. Rynothealbino
    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 249

    Rynothealbino
    Member

    If I go the axle out front with a track nose, I was looking at 33-34 truck radiators, or 37-39 60 hp radiators (might be a little on the small side?). They would slip down in nicely and be the perfect size and angle to stuff under a track nose.

    As far as spindles and brakes go, I will have to modify stuff for sure. But they were local and the price was right. Even with having to do some messing around I will still end up being cheaper then having to buy F1 spindles, and then both sets of steering arms. Plus the F1 arms need some ugly cut off of them. Worst case I change my mind later and these sit on the shelf waiting to get used on a different project.

    I am hoping to get a chance to mock up a different front crossmember this week, and maybe see if I can get my hands on that Deuce shell too. I should get the engine out of it's hiding place and at least hang it in the engine bay at some point here.
     
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  30. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,761

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Your inverted crossmember is a neat idea, but I think it's going to cause you more trouble than it's worth with the length of your frame and distance to your firewall as it sits.

    I have noted that all of the cars you've posted as inspiration have the axle in front of the radiator except one (on a 32 frame with a conventional spring-over setup).

    I would suggest you put a square tube in between your rails up there and put a suicide perch on there with the radiator on top or behind it. The shell or nose you use doesn't really matter at this point; fitting your engine, radiator, suspension, steering, and axle matter now.

    You can cut into a track nose however you need to; it's just fiberglass.
     
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