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Technical 8BA in a Model A

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by NB141FD, Jan 9, 2016.

  1. NB141FD
    Joined: Apr 15, 2015
    Posts: 53

    NB141FD

    Goal: Install an 8BA in a Model A frame without trimming the firewall, lengthening the WB or resorting to earlier 59A front engine (crab dizzy) setup.

    I know that 8RT water pumps will help but was wondering if 1937-48 water pumps could be used effectively since they have a smaller offset than the 8RT's.

    Found these pictures from unknown source which look like a mock-up of what I am trying to do; 37-48 water pumps (I know that the water port above the WP will have to be plugged), SBC distributor to clear fan belt and generator driven fan.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    My question is, has anyone used the 37-48 water pump setup to fit an 8BA into a Model A frame? If you have can you tell me what pulleys you used for the crank and generator mounted fan? Also, any problems or advice on this install would be appreciated.

    Tony
     
  2. Model A Gomez
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,190

    Model A Gomez
    Member

    I have a 30 coupe with an 8BA flathead and 48-52 8RT truck water pumps. I welded the motor mounts to the top of the frame rail and the fuel pump riser touches the firewall. If I had dropped the mounts down about an inch it would have cleared but the right head is really tight. I also machined the front pulley off the double crank pulley to allow the motor to set lower without it hitting the front cross member. The pulley on the generator is from a 35 - 38 ford, there are two length of fans and the one shown is the short version. I ended up with a 1 1/2 inch set back on the bottom of the firewall. You can see how tight the front of the motor is in relation to the radiator and the rear is to the firewall.
     

    Attached Files:

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  3. NB141FD
    Joined: Apr 15, 2015
    Posts: 53

    NB141FD

    Thanks for the response Gomez, that's pretty much what I had discovered when researching the use of the 8RT pumps. I was just thinking that if the 37-48 pumps worked, because of their shorter offset, I might not have to mess with the firewall or engine mounts. So far it doesn't look like anyone on the HAMB or the Ford Barn has gone this route on an AV8.

    Tony

     
  4. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,516

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Not to horn in on your thread but as I am working at doing the same thing can someone say if these are the "right truck pumps" or ?? They were used to put the flathead in and early Jeep wagon that I took it out of. They always looked a bit bulky to me
    [​IMG]

    They always looked a bit bulky and overly heavy duty to me. [​IMG]
     
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  5. ABONES
    Joined: Dec 3, 2004
    Posts: 985

    ABONES
    Member

    Truck pumps have a wide pulley and belt.
     
  6. lodaddyo
    Joined: May 5, 2002
    Posts: 1,171

    lodaddyo
    Member

    Those are the 0CM mercury pumps 51-52, narrow belt pulley
     
  7. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,516

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  8. Just did this in my A. If you want to run the stock hood you will need to set the engine back a bit so the radiator stays in its usual spot.
    I used all 8RT parts. Pumps, double crank pulley, and generator pulley
    To get the wide belt. That generator pulley can be hard to find but they have 8RT stamped in them for identification.
    Then everything lines up. Also you can't run the stock fuel pump stand and pump because of clearance. Go to an electric mounted out of sight.
    And you will need to modify the firewall to get enough clearance for the rear head bolts.
    OR.... you can go with a custom made longer hood and move the radiator forward and skip all this.
     
  9. I'm doing a 8ba A V/8 , 28-29 2dr sedan . I started my layout with a stock rearend in stock location ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1452385516.824773.jpg and then worked my way forward. Bolting trans , truck bell housing , Engine . ended up with 6" cxc mount to center of crossmember ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1452385834.917287.jpg firewall clears "tight" ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1452385947.323587.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1452386006.924049.jpg I'm using Drake truck pumps., 36 fan / gen 5/8" belt driving of rear crank pulley ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1452386344.978100.jpg I used a spacer on gen to correct lineup . I'm using a stock hood and radiator in stock mounting . Hope you can use this info
     
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  10. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,516

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I don't know about NB141FD but I have never been a fan of the move the radiator forward thing. In my case a little massage work on he firewall wouldn't be a deal killer though.
     
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  11. NB141FD
    Joined: Apr 15, 2015
    Posts: 53

    NB141FD

    No Stinkin Windows, if I read you right you were able to get an 8BA into a A frame without trimming the firewall or moving the radiator forward, is that correct? I am using a 39 3-speed trans with torque tube and banjo rear-end.

    Tony

     
  12. Right my biggest problem was getting my fan and pulleys lined up and back from radiator . The engine is tight to firewall ,but unless there is a lot of motor movement it should work ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1452391288.548729.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1452391341.058833.jpg
     
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  13. NB141FD
    Joined: Apr 15, 2015
    Posts: 53

    NB141FD

    Man that is tight, but you made it work and that's what counts. Using your method eliminates the need to plug the exposed water port above the 37-48 water pump. Do you happen to have a picture of the spacer you used with your generator?

    Tony


     
  14. J'st Wandering
    Joined: Jan 28, 2004
    Posts: 1,647

    J'st Wandering
    Member

    I believe the narrow belt started in 1950, wide belt was 1949.

    Neal
     
  15. flatford39
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 2,445

    flatford39
    Member

    The 28 29 firewall might give enough relief to shoehorn this in. I am trying to do it in a 31 Roadster and the firewall isn't as forgiving as the 28 29 but I have my front motor mounts almost exactly where you have yours and I think I can make it fit without cutting the firewall. I am still doing mock ups and don't have the clearance between the radiator and fan worked out but I am close and I think this can be done without cutting the firewall.
     
  16. NB141FD
    Joined: Apr 15, 2015
    Posts: 53

    NB141FD

    Flatford39 are you using the 8RT pumps?

    Tony

     
  17. J'st Wandering
    Joined: Jan 28, 2004
    Posts: 1,647

    J'st Wandering
    Member

    I had an 8BA in once. Turned out to be a cracked block so I replaced it with a 59ab. Here is a picture of the 8BA. P5310167.jpg

    It had truck pumps with narrow pulleys. I adjusted the firewall with a hammer for clearance for the fuel pump and it was darn tight at the radiator. This is in a '29.
    DSC01544.jpg
    The aluminum head is the 59ab but it sorta shows how tight it is by the head and fuel pump riser.

    Neal
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
  18. flatford39
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 2,445

    flatford39
    Member

    Yes I am.
     
  19. NB141FD
    Joined: Apr 15, 2015
    Posts: 53

    NB141FD

    By the way, this is why I was originally thinking of going with the 37-48 pumps:
    [​IMG]
    considerable difference in the offset. With the 37-48 pumps I would have to use the SBC distributor to clear the fan belt.

    Tony
     
  20. flatford39
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 2,445

    flatford39
    Member

    I think the key is the fan/generator combo you use. I see that no stinking windows used a 36 set up. That may be the missing key for me.

    I also see that no stinking windows has the double pulley still on his crank and seem to make it fit. I would think if you went to a single pulley it would even give you a little more room. I mean were talking about 1/2 inches here.
     
  21. NB141FD
    Joined: Apr 15, 2015
    Posts: 53

    NB141FD

    I agree, I think his setup is the way to go. I hope he posts a pic of his generator spacer or some info on how to fab or buy one.

    The problem, although minor with using the 37-48 pumps is that you have to plug the open water port above the water pump and you have to use an extended distributor (SBC) to clear the fan belt. With NS Windows setup you eliminate those minor problems.

    Tony
     
  22. Flatblack 31
    Joined: Oct 14, 2011
    Posts: 239

    Flatblack 31
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I am putting a mercury motor in a 39 deluxe coupe and you need to use truck water pumps for that swap. I had difficulties with a generator so I modified an original 39 generator and used a later model strap type mount, this allowed me to move the generator out far enough to line up with the truck water pumps. This might help in your situation. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1452394385.641314.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1452394405.518504.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1452394431.465169.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1452394454.876044.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1452394478.703675.jpg
     
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  23. flatford39
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 2,445

    flatford39
    Member

    Tony,

    That's really interesting. If the 37 48 pumps can be used you will have a lot more room. I have no problem using a Chevy distributor as they are a better choice anyway than the original Ford one. I really hope someone chimes in here that has tried this.
     
  24. NB141FD
    Joined: Apr 15, 2015
    Posts: 53

    NB141FD

    Flatblack31 thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

    Tony

     
  25. 59ab
    Joined: Feb 19, 2009
    Posts: 221

    59ab
    Member

    If you use 37-48 pumps on a 8ba block the pumps will have no oil supply unless you can find some with sealed bearings
     
  26. flatford39
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 2,445

    flatford39
    Member

    Where's the oil coming from??? I have both pumps in front of me and the only difference I see is one more hole in the 8RT pump at 12:00 O'Clock that doesn't even match to my 8BA.
     
  27. flatford39
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 2,445

    flatford39
    Member

    I just looked a little closer and I see an opening in the pump that lines up with an opening in a 59AB block I have. My 8BA is at the machine shop right now so I can't compare but I suspect this is some kind of oil passage as it was all gunked up.

    How do the 8RT's get oil???
     
  28. NB141FD
    Joined: Apr 15, 2015
    Posts: 53

    NB141FD

    I believe the 37-48 pumps from Speedway, Bob Drake and Dennis Carpenter are double row sealed ball bearings.
     
  29. flatford39
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 2,445

    flatford39
    Member

    Looking at a Speedway catalog right now and they say their bearings are roller and ball bearings. I think that this is what you are talking about. If that is the case than the problem with the fan goes away but you need to address the distributor as the belt will be in the way. I would like to know more about the Chevy distributor fix. What year works and what are the mod's.
     
  30. NB141FD
    Joined: Apr 15, 2015
    Posts: 53

    NB141FD

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