if this has been addressed alot...i can't seem to find it...gonna take out the welsh plugs before taking the crank to the machine shop..have the tool and new thread in plugs...no problem,i hope...my machinist said that most people usually don't take them out,but whatever i want no problem...but i read on a flathead page that you have to get the crank balanced after that...i would think that you would want to balance the whole bottem end together because it is a rotating mass...nothing in the manuals about changing the plugs talks about balancing...nobody in my state balances and it's not gonna be a high reveing engine...anybody ever done this and what would the pros and cons of balancing a street motor be...thanks alot for your input..george
The acccumulated crud needs to come out anyway so its a moot point. Many stock engine builders dont bother with a rebalance but as mentioned it sure can help. Heck, Ive pulled apart engines that were rebuilt with 2 different size pistons! And you wonder why rebuilts got such a bad reputation.
Assuming the crank is in your hands because you're going to rebuild the motor, you're likely to be very disappointed if you don't have the rotating and recips balanced before assembly. In addition to the cleaned crankshaft, the machine shop will need the new pistons (with pins and rings), the connecting rods and bearings, and the flywheel and clutch assembly. You'll be happy you spent the extra bucks.
i guess i should be more clear...i'll probably balance the motor,but do you have too if, you change the crank plugs...just in case
You are still not very clear. IF it is just the crank that will be cleaned and turned then you dont have to rebalance. IF you are replacing pistons, resizing rods or anything like that then the whole shebang should be balanced.
George, belive it or not, replacing (after removing the old welsh plugs and CLEANING out the sludge traps) with THREADED plugs CAN upset balance. The amount of "crud" that is trapped in those four locations (just did one) is unbelieveable. The BIG question is; was that engine ever balanced before? As av8 said, "If you have it all apart, NOW is the time to balance (rebalance) the engine. You will NOT regret it!"
All Canadian Ford cranks (Merc included) had threaded "sludge trap plugs." George indicated he was going to remove the "drive in" (Welsh) plugs and replace them with the threaded type. The threaded plugs don't weigh much more but the issue in this post is "should he balance the engine?" Ford did a reasonable job; BUT if he (George) doesn't know the previous history of the engine; then I would go for a balance job. Too may other flathead owners tend to aggree it DOES make a difference.
Yes, indeed, nothing that Ford did should come as a surprise to anyone anymore, but there are hardcore restorers who will stake their lives on some of the "constants" involving what Ford did and did not do. I do know that Meyer-Welch in California used Johnson adjustable lifters in their Ford-authorized rebuilds, Carl. I don't know if that was across the board, for all years, but they were in the 24-stud long blocks in the '50s. FWIW, the M-W motors had an excellent reputation because they did not scrimp on new pieces -- no mixed bore sizes on their motors. BTW, the Meyer of M-W was the same Meyer of Meyer-Drake, and we know what those folks thought of engine build quality! Dave -- You gave be a great bit of trivia -- and knowledge -- about Ford/Mercury cranks when you told me about the large cleanout plugs in 3-3/4-inch Canadian Ford cranks. Gonna have to be extra careful when looking for 4-inch Mercury cranks now!
[ QUOTE ] av8: Dave -- You gave be a great bit of trivia -- and knowledge -- about Ford/Mercury cranks when you told me about the large cleanout plugs in 3-3/4-inch Canadian Ford cranks. Gonna have to be extra careful when looking for 4-inch Mercury cranks now! [/ QUOTE ] The information that I passed along to av8 about CANADIAN flathead cranks was; A. Not ALL Merc cranks have the LARGE "clean out" plugs. ALMOST ALL Canadian cranks used THREADED sludge trap plugs; both Ford 3 3/4" AND Merc 4". The size of the plug is NOT a good indicator; some Ford 3 3/4"'s have LARGE plugs. av8 can verify this, I just shipped him one! B. Canadian MERC cranks can be identified by a small rectangular "dimple" on the front counter weight. (looking head on from the front "snout") C. When all else fails; Mike Davidson (aussie flathead guru) points out that 3 & 3/4" cranks are less than 6" across the flats on the large counter weight flats, (side to side) while the MERC 4" crank measures OVER 6". ALL the cranks I have/had passed THIS test. Both USA and Canadian.
[ QUOTE ] Mike Davidson's rule-of-thumb won't work on your crank when I get done with it, Dave. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, but Davidson never measured one of YOUR cranks after you were done with it!! BTW - How's it going?
thanks guys...sorry 286...i was trying to clean everything and do a rebuild without balancing,since i have to ship everything off...nobody in our tiny state does this....someone told me that i have a canadian block...how would i know for sure...it has been releived and the job is so nice that it looks stock...they said that was why...i'm new to this and don't want to make costly mistakes
FLATHEAD INFO FOR ANYONE THAT NEEDS IT The following sites are related to Fords Famous FLATHEAD engine. Not all by any means, but ones that I have found useful. http://flatheadcentral.com http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_drawings_engines.htm http://www.agt.net/public/bboogaar/magazine.htm This site is maintained by a fellow here in Calgary by the name of Bill Boogaart. It has been recognized world wide for flathead information. NOTE: This site includes information on flathead engine identification. (years etc.) http://roadsters.com/flathead/#Src This site is maintained by Dave Mann and probably has the largest collection of Sites related to flatheads on the web. He updates this site regularly. (even found my own site listed!!)
george please tell me the block I sold you was not a canadian block? hope its all goin well.. if your interested I know a shop here in town that could do everything you need. as they were the ones who installed the bearings.. let me know sawzall
Digger Dave, re: http://flatheadcentral.com, Flathead Central has been defunct for several years. Sunny Harmon (not her name any more, but I'm having brain fade) started it when she worked for Halibrand selling French blocks. Her web efforts are now going into the Vintage Nitro Alliance web site http://www.vintagenitro.org/. This one doesn't seem too lively right now either, but I haven't heard that it is really dead. I hope not, since Sunny is trying to put together the Heartland Hot Rod Reunion to be held in Great Bend, KS next year. But I digress again.
i'll talk to you at the hoedown maybe sawzall...i don't know if is canadian,someone just said that...how do you tell?....what are the pros and cons to that?...my machinist said that it looks great,had the valve seats done and a light bore and hone
[ QUOTE ] Digger Dave, re: http://flatheadcentral.com, Flathead Central has been defunct for several years. [/ QUOTE ] Jim, thanks for the update. I've had that link stored for a number of years, but had not wandered in for a while. (just looked in this morning, REAL quiet!) Thanks again! NOTE TO EVERYONE; I TRIED TO DELETE THE LINK THAT JIM IS REFERING TO, BUT THE POST IS TOO OLD TO EDIT.
[ QUOTE ] ..i don't know if is canadian,someone just said that...how do you tell?.... [/ QUOTE ] George, check this site for identification info on Canadian flatheads... http://www.agt.net/public/bboogaar/magazine.htm Go to the bottom of the opening page; and "click" on RETURN TO MY HOME PAGE; all kinds of CANADIAN ID information.
Alright, since someone else started this I got a couple of questions, that you all might help me figure out. I have 2 cranks out of 2 engines right now, and some how they got switched on me. What I have, or should have is a 8BA crank and a 53 Merc crank. By looking at the plugs one is bigger, but the holes on the counter weights are different, one has 2 holes per weight, one has one single. I can get some pictures if it helps? I know which one is which now, but anyone ever seen or know what the extra holes is about?
Speedo, I think your refering to the holes on the OUTSIDE of the large counterweights. (and sometimes on the small) These holes were drilled to get the right BALANCE of the engine. There could be any number of balancing holes drilled to reduce the "off balance" weight of the crank. The holes av8 and I were refering to (sludge traps) are visable from the front or the rear of the crank in the middle of the connecting rod throws. There are four of them. (two face forward and two back) Most USA Merc cranks can be identified by the larger "plugs" (drive in Welsh plugs) and are usually 5/8" in dia. Where the Ford cranks only used 3/8". (the size varied depending on which plant made the crank) It has always been a "trick" of identifing Merc cranks at swap meets by putting your finger in the plug; if it went in, then it was a Merc. (4" stroke, and very desirable!!) If it didn't go in, then it was a Ford (3 & 3/4" stroke) As I mentioned earlier, cranks made in Canada and Australia used "threaded" sludge plugs; and the size of the plug was not a good indicator. The best way to identify the cranks is to measure ACROSS the FLAT areas (at right angles to the center line) of the LARGE COUNTER WEIGHTS; if it measures UNDER 6", it's a 3 & 3/4" Ford; if it measures OVER 6", then it is a MERC 4" throw.
Dave, I understood about the 3/8, 5/8 plugs type of telling the 4" vs the 3 & 3/4, but I thought that that was not 100%, all the time. Figures on the holes, I never thought that one all the way through, I guess...
A-v8-- Try this on for size, I bought this crank that was sold to me as a 4". It had the large plugs and the demple,I sent it out for grinding and the machine shop said yea if you only want a 4" crank. I said it already is a 4", I got laughed at big time.
[ QUOTE ] A-v8-- Try this on for size, I bought this crank that was sold to me as a 4". It had the large plugs and the demple,I sent it out for grinding and the machine shop said yea if you only want a 4" crank. I said it already is a 4", I got laughed at big time. [/ QUOTE ] Well, it might have been a stroked 4" crank. (4 & 1/8" or 4 & 1/4")
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