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Projects '62 Corvette gets '63 Latham Supercharger

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by younglove, Aug 3, 2018.

  1. RancherNC
    Joined: Feb 15, 2014
    Posts: 2

    RancherNC
    Member

    That's funny, I called this week and asked about a jet size for a AFB.
    he basically told me to look it up in a manual I didn't have then hung up on me. Mikes took an extra few minutes to find what I needed and was nice about it. He gets my business from now on. Will never give that rude, unhelpful man a penny.
     
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  2. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    I Parkerized the throttle bodies and put them back to a 60% gloss black and all hardware is freshly plated in white cadmium. Rebuild complete and they're much more responsive.
     

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  3. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    7 blade fan installed, shroud sealed up and it helped but it still won't stay cool at an idle. Doesn't matter if the timing is at 10 or 14, it'll just creep up and over 220*!
    So the search for a solution continues?
    I like Jim's idea about doing a test swap to a vacuum advance distributor but there's no port on the '62 Corvette F.I. intake or the Latham adapter plate. That's a helluva lot of effort to try it. It's a conflicting challenge anyways...vacuum advance seems to help lots of folks typically but then it seems superchargers in general don't benefit from such an addition? I think I'll ask "Squirrel".
    I believe a pusher fan would help a touch but it wouldn't solve it...heck it's only 50-60* right now and the hood's not even on!!!
    It's pretty great to be able to drive it though! More tuning to figure out!
     
  4. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,291

    jimdillon
    Member

    Chad something does not seem quite right with overheating at idle with the hood off and a new fan that you know is pushing a decent amount of air. I am sure you checked everything but this may be one of those times where you have to go over everything once again. I would be interested in finding out the various temperatures of the radiator and engine with an IR gun.

    Another thing is that some of the sending units that are offered by Corvette vendors are pure junk. I have several that were new but registered as too hot when they should not have. I would also be very interested in the flow of the water/antifreeze mix. With the expansion tanks you should be able to watch the tank go down a bit when the thermostat opens. With both of my 62s after drag racing (where I had to remove the antifreeze) when I re-add the mix I can watch the expansion tank actually empty quite quickly and watch my temperature rise but as soon as I add the mix I can see the temp go back quite quickly to a 180*(or thereabouts).

    I agree a pusher would not solve your present situation IMO. With the hood still off there is something pushing that temperature up that I am not sure even a distributor change would rectify.

    If it was me I would use an IR gun and watch the temps closely on the block in several spots and several areas of the radiator. Time the temps from starting a cold engine and watch to make sure you have good flow. If you could post some of those temps I and others may benefit from the readings and give you some ideas to straighten this out. Good luck.
     
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  5. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    Thanks Jim, I agree with all of that. I did some poking around w/ an IR gun the other day but didn't record anything on paper. I'll try that mid-week.
    It's probably me just looking for an answer but the radiator seemed to have some dramatic temp differences. And in the very beginning, I found 4-6 small pieces of orange paint in my expansion tank. Radiator capillary tubes are pretty tiny...it just made me wonder but haven't followed up on this one?
    I'm still running straight water, I've always done this on start ups until little things are sorted out. Nothing worse to me than antifreeze all over my fresh parts...it's my least favorite fluid in a vehicle!
    I understand what you're saying about the temp sending unit but this will boil over/out. It'll go past 220 to 230 and then if I'm not paying attention show 240 and that's too much for the expansion tank cap to handle. Inadvertently has happened twice for a brief moment.
     
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  6. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 8,461

    noboD
    Member

    As Jim said check with an IR gun and record temps where the water comes in and out of the radiator, plus each cylinder at the exhaust.
     
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  7. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 12,594

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    Is the radiator cap good?
     
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  8. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,291

    jimdillon
    Member

    Chad after thinking about it today with the temp going to 230ish that seems a bit extreme. I would be the first to admit that I am the furthest thing from an expert with supercharged engines. Is there anyone that you have heard of that has run a Latham that can give you some insight as to the quirks of the system?

    Also not sure of the vacuum available with a supercharger if you could even switch out the distributor. It still though has me wondering if there is a flow issue. Running a little hot is one thing with the hood on etc but with the hood off 230 is a bit hot for these older engines. If it was running quite lean it would seem that you would see the headers glow that may tell you something but you have not mentioned that. I cooked a set of header coatings one time when I was way lean on a new build years ago but as soon as I saw the headers it was pretty easy to see I screwed up with my combination. Hope for the best for you.
     
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  9. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 12,594

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    When you mounted the front engine mount bracket between the engine and water pump, could the bypass hole gotten partially closed up with sealer?
     
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  10. glennpm
    Joined: Mar 29, 2015
    Posts: 168

    glennpm

    Great project you have!

    A friend had a T bucket with a 454 Chevy and put a Latham super charger on it. This was the fastest 0 to whatever car I had ever been in! His father had had one a few years earlier so he knew he wanted one. Told me that the biggest thing was blowing spark plugs out!, breaking the ceramic.

    Not sure if you have or seen the attached.
     

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    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
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  11. olscrounger
    Joined: Feb 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,770

    olscrounger
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Good info from jimdillon. Some years ago we redid a 62 Vette, It would run right up to 220 on the gauge after a bit. Checked with IR gun and it was not that hot at all. New temp senders were way off in ohm value Checked with another mech temp gauge was about 180-185 Corrected with a resistor in line (10 ohm as I recall? still have a few). Made a bunch and sent to vette guys with the same problem.
     
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  12. I love the style of this build, lots of mods mixed with touches of originality. I always liked a car that looks like you hot rodded a cream puff used car and only changed what needed to be changed, everything else left untouched. A supercharger with correct hose clamps and the stripe still on the springs etc. One little detail I noticed that looks a touch out of place tho, the counter sunk allen screws next to the vintage gauges mounted in the radio hole would look better replaced with slotted oval head screws. This has been a very interesting read, Jim Dillon's input, as usual, has been spot on. I'm living vicariously through you guys while trying to figure out what direction to go on the 57 in my avatar.
     
  13. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    Thanks again Jim
    I asked the original owner who put 60,000 miles on this Latham with three different engine setups and there didn't seem to be any great challenges. Perhaps I'll call him again and write down notes to cross reference every detail. I could also call Richard Paul again(he bought "Latham" rights years back).

    230 on the gauge and will go to 240 if allowed and I need to say this gauge has not be verified as accurate either HOWEVER what is verified it will boil over/blow out under the cap if allowed...every time.

    I agree regarding the vacuum w/ the supercharger based on what I've learned thus far from lots of research and from JohnZ over on the Corvette Forum and Bubba here on HAMB(distributor master!), so I asked him about mine and he agreed, mine is working properly and is just fine for a supercharger.

    Running lean could be something?
    Not sure I have much more adjustment available? I'm only a 1/2 turn out from closed!

    Here's an insightful suggestion from "mrichard" on the Corvette Forum...
    "I have ran a few 671 super chargers on these cars a lot of years ago and here is what I eventually discovered. You can put all the radiator, fans, and seals on them and still overheat at idle. You will need to figure out how to make the idle circuits way, way more rich. Did I say rich, really rich. I didn't get there until I could see a puff of black smoke when throttling up.
    Additionally, static compression is not a good measure of what will work in this case either. Compression doesn't start until the intake valve closes as everyone knows. You may need to find a more suitable cam with a latter intake valve closing which in effect lowers dynamic compression. You can also reduce the boost by shimming the rotor clearance (on roots type). I don't know what a Latham looks like inside though. I am not familiar with the carbs you have either. Again I would start with the idle circuits. I ran a 671 supercharged 67-427 on the street with two Holly carbs for years that would idle all day a never overheat after making a few hard learned discoveries. I also fixed a friends small block equipped 60 with a 671 the same way. You are going to be using a lot a gas.
    Best of luck, Michael Richardson P.E."

    VARIOUS TEMPERATURES, progressively after startup...
    upper hose next to thermostat 80,125,130,145
    upper hose on inline thermostat 110,157,163,180
    upper hose @ intake manifold 92,130,150,
    temp sending unit 76,115,120,120
    lower hose @ water pump 82,122,150,
    lower right corner of radiator 77,120,120,150,195
    temp gauge 105,135,150,185,220,240 then blew out under cap
    The upper 1/2 to 2/3 of the radiator was half the temperature of the lower portion, except the side tanks, they were hot like the lower right corner.
    EXHAUST TEMPERATURES, pretty consistent...
    #1=695 #2=750
    #3=756 #4=740
    #5=685 #6=770
    #7=726 #8=742
     
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  14. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    Don't think so, I'm a believer of gaskets and not goop. I truly just used the sealer to hold the gaskets in place.
     
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  15. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    Thanks, I'll take a look!
     
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  16. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    Thanks for the screw observation, it's a good period correct observation. I'm not changing my allen head bolts for the headers though...I've used them since 1985 and pretty sure I'd have found them in the mid '60s as well(if i'd been alive)! I need things to be functional, heck this Latham in general is not very friendly on a functional wrenching aspect...it's tested and testing me!!!

    Just build your car the way you've always wanted it or one! Cuz life is flyin by!
     
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  17. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    I forgot to mention, there's a Hayden fan clutch currently installed which almost immediately stops spinning when warm at shut off. This tells me it's working based on what I know.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
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  18. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 12,594

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    You will know when a fan clutch works, it will sound like a fan runnin. ;)
     
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  19. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    The cam has been a wonder of mine since the beginning? I went with what I wanted and what the machine shop thought would be fine VS. calling professional companies and getting good advice.
    It's an L-79 spec cam, so that would be '65 I believe?
    Latham quit building these in '65 I believe?
    I'm really wondering about what Michael Richards mentioned regarding the cam..."Additionally, static compression is not a good measure of what will work in this case either. Compression doesn't start until the intake valve closes as everyone knows. You may need to find a more suitable cam with a latter intake valve closing which in effect lowers dynamic compression."
    Screen Shot 2018-12-05 at 6.50.09 PM.png
    Dur. @.050" Int.223 Exh.223
    Adv. Dur. Int.290 Exh.290
    Valve lift Int.447 Exh.447
    Lobe Sep. Int.110 Exh.118
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  20. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,291

    jimdillon
    Member

    Chad, I feel for you on this deal. I have had times like you are having and it has made me question my sanity for liking cars in the first place. The good thing is there is a solution but you have to find it-the hard way possibly. Once you start enjoying the car once again it will make it all worth it.

    I guess the thing that is throwing me is that by your explanation if I am reading it correctly is that the temps seem to be in range and then all of a sudden your expansion tanks pukes with a spike of 230 to 240. Since you have straight water I would try a few things. As I mentioned with my 62s, one is a big block and the other a small block but if I was to drain my radiator and fill it cold through the expansion tank with the engine running they both react the same, so it may be some form of benchmark. With the engine running when I fill it, the expansion tank will only hold so much as the thermostat (180 in my instance) holds the water from filling the system. I can watch my gauge and when it reaches 180 the tank drains very rapidly and the temp starts to climb. As I continue to add water the gauge normalizes to 180ish. I would be interested to know if your tank drains rapidly when it reaches your thermostat temp (be it 160 or 180 depending on your thermostat-or thereabouts). I would be interested to know if your system is working similar to mine.

    I am curious also to know some of your block temperatures versus the radiator temps. I would be most curious to see the temps around your bottom radiator hose. The 62 Vettes sometimes have issues with the bottom hose collapsing and many come with the spring insert. Even if it has the spring insert I would like to know the corresponding temps, lets say when your gauge starts to climb over the 200*range (so you are not doing damage and letting it go to 240). I also would like to know the block temps up top on both sides of the water pump and the water pump itself, once again if possible once the temp starts to spike on the block just prior to boiling over.

    If it was possible to bump up the jets in your carburetor it may tell you if the engine is going too lean. I would certainly like to try that before changing camshafts. As to camshafts there should be some decent engineers in your neck of the woods that build performance engines for drag racing. With your somewhat unique atmospheric issues, drag racers running superchargers would give you some better advice on camshaft selection than the guy over the phone at the cam manufacturers IMO. I happen to like the L79 cam and have a spare sitting on the shelf but I do not have a clue as to whether it is the optimum piece to use in your setup.

    Before pulling your hair out and changing components like a cam or going real crazy on the carburetors, I would like to know if the whole system is working as it should. While you continue to figure it out I will continue to scratch my head for whatever that is worth. Good luck.
     
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  21. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    Thanks Jim...again!
    I'm with you 100%, I really just want to zero in and check off one item at a time.

    You are correct about "all of a sudden", all of a sudden is probably a stretch but we are both thinking the same thing. It is truly a slow build of pressure and temps.
    Last night I actually thought I had a sigh of relief for a moment. The gauge was up to 230 but I could not find anything higher than 190-210 anywhere on any water ways. But then I noticed 230 on the expansion tanks lower outlet hose. Jumped over to check the lower water pump hose and POP, it spewed from the cap. So I jumped back over and shut it off.
    I'll do your test. I have 160* in currently but I drilled a 1/8" hole in it but I'm pretty sure I have a 180* on the shelf and will try that way.
    I'll check and note more block temps as well.
    Since I know for certain now that it will boil over, I'll go back to shutting it down prior to self inducing damage!
     
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  22. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    FIRST ATTEMPT...
    Radiator drained and refilled
    New 180* thermostat(undrilled)
    Expansion tank cap off and nearly full
    Lower hose @ pump 100
    Upper hose @ intake 100
    Upper hose @ radiator 82
    Gauge went to 180 then quickly to 240(literally before I could get another IR reading)
    Expansion tank started spewing with cap off
    Shut off engine and violent gurgling through upper radiator hose and tank
    Within two minutes there's a huge sucking/draw down and the expansion tank is emptied into the system.
    SECOND ATTEMPT...
    After tying the above I tried again w/ the same setup.
    Upper hose @ intake 120, 125
    Upper hose @ radiator 77,73
    Lower hose @ pump 135,135
    R. side of water pump 135,145
    Sending unit 120,120
    Gauge 130, 180 and within seconds to 220, puked out water, shut it off
    THIRD ATTEMPT...
    After five minutes to put the 160* drilled thermostat back in, I tried again(the below temps are literally after 5-8 minutes after just puking with a 220* gauge)
    Upper hose @ intake 132,135,135,142,150,160
    Upper hose @ radiator 102,150,165,190,201,210,210
    Lower hose @ pump 115,140,145,160,165,160
    R. side of water pump 132,150,155,160,165,170
    Block to right of water pump(skipped the beginning)160,165,155
    Gauge 160,175,200,220(in 3.5 minutes),220,225(in 6 minutes),240 and geyser'd(8 minutes)
    The whole time the system was randomly puking out the top of the tank, literally working to empty the system?
    I wish I knew what this meant but I honestly don't understand it?
    In 10 minutes I'm going to fill the tank 1/2 full(probably too full due to temperature?) and go for a drive and I'm guessing all will operate smoothly whilst driving?
    TWO THINGS for anyone to ponder due to them making me wonder again since the beginning.
    1. My upper radiator hose is running up hill on a 60* angle. Is this too steep? Can air pockets be created?
    2. My lower hose for the expansion tank is running into a "T" at the heater hose. It's the hose that feeds into the right side of the intake manifold. Could this be messing with the systems natural flow? Typically this would feed into the top of the water pump, as far as I know. The way I have it, is the way Latham instructed one to do and original owner confirmed and Roger Paul confirmed as well.
    IMG_2597.JPG IMG_2653.JPG
     
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  23. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,291

    jimdillon
    Member

    Chad, I do not believe the upper radiator hose is the problem and theoretically if you leave the cap off it is supposed to help with air pockets. I may have to ponder it a bit but I believe some of the mid years (maybe 64 or 65) had the expansion tank on the right side and did have a tee into the heater hose but I thought it was the hose off of the water pump and not the return line to the intake (I think). If your car is not sucking down the water when it is available in your expansion tank I believe the engine is cooking without enough water and is spiking. When it draws down the water after the engine is shut off, it seems to indicate that the system is fighting itself but when the pressure against the draw down of water dies down then it allows water to enter the system.

    I am working on something a bit right now (that is taking some of my time) and have not found a schematic of the way they did it with the mid years but it may help you to look that up. If that is the case then it may be an easy fix. It just seems that the block may be starving for water when it needs it most and causes the spike. That expansion tank should empty as soon as the thermostat reaches temperature IMO and it is not. Will think about it and see if I can find anything to be helpful later.
     
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  24. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    Thanks, I remember looking for a flow drawing originally when I was trying to figure out where to tee into. Then I asked others and did what I did...I look some more. Thanks for your insights.
     
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  25. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,291

    jimdillon
    Member

    Chad I am doing some welding so I have a window here and there to look up stuff but not enough time to really do a good search. On a quick search I did come up with this and it seems to show that the tee should be on the line off the right side of the water pump.
    9900.jpg
     
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  26. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 12,594

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    I am guessing that the fitting in the upper hose is the thermostat.
    If that is higher that the expansion tank could that be a problem?
    Have you tried to remove the thermostat and run a restrictor?
     
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  27. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    I'll do more digging but I'm guessing that year is different. Our cars have the 5/8" hose coming off the expansion tank to the top of the water pump originally. The 3/4" hose comes off the left side of the water pump to the heater.
    My assumption and what others suggested was 5/8" off the expansion tank(per original)to the 5/8" hose in the intake manifold(per original).
    However, maybe the "T" that was supposedly supplied from Latham was a 3/4" to 5/8" "T"? Which would allow the drawing you're pointing out to work!!!
    If that's the case...
     
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  28. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 8,461

    noboD
    Member

    I was thinking that too Saltflats. But I am wondering why there's such a difference in the temp in the top hose from the intake to the radiator, 50 degrees higher.
     
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  29. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    This is why I felt so lost per the Latham instructions and is why I brought this up a long time ago. Sucks feeling lost!
    Latham instructions, "Heater hose is also furnished that runs to the expansion tank and around the back of the compressor from a tee furnished that is installed into the heater hose. On the '61 the hose connection on top of the water pump cannot be used for clearance reasons."
    That seemed to tell me that the 5/8" hose on top of the water pump could not be used, so use the tee furnished and tie into the heater hose?
    I assumed this was the hose they were talking about since they brought it up?
     
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  30. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    Yes, it's the inline thermostat.
    I wondered that as well, but I've tried to eliminate that question.
    I've run an empty thermostat housing, I think it actually boils faster if I remember correctly.
     
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