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Technical 62 413 kicking my butt, can't get it to run

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 50dodge4x4, Apr 14, 2014.

  1. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    80psi is almost 100psi lower than it oughtta be....I don't know if that thing is going to start for you without being yanked out and rebuilt.

    Scott


    Posted using two Dixie cups and a medium length piece of string.
     
  2. i think the compression is low also. to really verify the timing pull the drivers side valve cover . watch the intake rocker go down then up. line up timing marks on the balancer and timing chain cover. look at the rotor position. its very possible its 180 out. if this engine is so crusty you can't remove the dist it may be possible the rings are stuck in the pistons. alum and steel don't like each other. even if you do get it running i suspect you will be pulling it apart cause it aint going to fix itself with that low compression. if it sat like you said there are always going to be valves open to let in moisture. i would like to see those cylinders.
     
  3. Compression test was not the most ideal, per first post, so I'm discounting that. Spark should be blue, not yellow. I would imagine, fix that, and it will pop over.

    From there I'd look for the timing to be out before anything else.
     
  4. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,055

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    A dear friend of 30yrs went through this same drill for over a week only to find he'd timed it backward. His mess was a 440. Same/same...
     
  5. Tom S. in Tn.
    Joined: Jan 16, 2011
    Posts: 1,108

    Tom S. in Tn.
    Member

     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  6. oldolds
    Joined: Oct 18, 2010
    Posts: 3,006

    oldolds
    Member

    I would bet the valves are staying open a bit on the cylinders that were open during it's rest. I have had a few cars that sat for years with that problem. I kept cranking, it would start running on a cylinder or 2 for short bursts. After a while it will run.

    Take it slow. Play with it for an hour, walk away. Do that ever night for a week, it will run.
     
  7. olskoolspeed
    Joined: Mar 2, 2009
    Posts: 474

    olskoolspeed

    I would remove the distributor first. It's gotta be free to time it anyway (after start up). Spin the oil pump. Set TDC on number 1 and start from scratch (aka basic 101).
     
  8. stimpy
    Joined: Apr 16, 2006
    Posts: 3,547

    stimpy


    I agree with him on the ignition , it must be blue and make a crack sound , under compression it will not be able to jump the gap ( you can back up electricity in a wire like you can with a hose and water both need current ( thanks DAd ) . bypass the resistor and clean the points , just because they look clean doesn't mean they are a little finger print oil on the contacts can screw them up , also get the specs for the points setting and set it to that . ( a match book cover is a good quick effective points setting device in a bind )

    and in a pinch bypass the ignition switch and run a clip on lead directly to the coil from the battery to help rule out any ignition circuit/reistance problems

    80 psi is what some B&S motors run at so a big chrysler should make a pop or some noise or try to run but not speed up quickly . and for the compression ratio being 10:1 thats normal for that era , they had real gas and often the numbers where done without the head gasket being figured in . ( found that out on my rb Dodges ) and the camshafts overlap also would bleed down the pressures.
     
  9. To sort of condense from some of the above posts...

    * Get the distributor freed up. It's got to be done anyway.

    * Verify direction of distributor rotation. You can feel silly now or you can feel silly later.

    And now a new suggestion to consider...

    * Attach vacuum gauge and check cranking manifold vacuum. Completely close throttle, remove spark plugs, charge the battery and spin 'er over. If it won't pull 4" to 6" vacuum it probably won't start. Might help pinpoint a timing chain or valve train problem.
     
  10. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,106

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I think Torqueflites had a rear-pump until 1965 or so, which means you should be able to push start it. If you've got open road and good brakes, line up behind it and push it down the road at 45-50MPH. Don't forget to turn the ignition on.

    Although it does sound to me like you might have a timing chain issue. Slipping a tooth or two will definitely result in lower compression numbers, not to mention spark that is nowhere close to being accurate.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  11. R Pope
    Joined: Jan 23, 2006
    Posts: 3,309

    R Pope
    Member

    Are you holding the throttle open when you do the comp. check?
    It sounds like a jumped timing chain to me. Pull the valve cover for #1 and turn it over to split overlap,exhaust just closing, intake just opening. The timing marks should be lined up, if not, the chain is your problem.
     
  12. 50dodge4x4
    Joined: Aug 7, 2004
    Posts: 3,535

    50dodge4x4
    Member

    Well, I borrowed a real compression gauge today and ran a compression test. I figured 80-90 should have allowed the motor to start, might not run well, but should have started. Test results with a throttle nearly wide open (closed throttle gave me 10psi less per cylinder):
    Left bank:
    #1 60 psi
    #3 70 psi
    #5 30 psi (I couldn't test this one with my hand held gauge)
    #7 60 psi (i couldn't test this one either)

    Right bank:
    #2 75 psi
    #4 90 psi
    #6 90 psi
    #8 90 psi (I couldn't test this one with my hand held)

    I pulled the valve cover off the left bank. #5 has a valve that is visably not closing completely, and #1 has a valve that appears to be sticking as it closes. All the rockers and valves are moving as the motor turns over. The two rockers with valve issues have a lot of slop between the valve and the push rod, the others seem OK. There is a lot of crud inside the valve cover.

    At minimum, the left head has to come off to see what is going on with the valves. As nasty as it looks inside the valve cover, the entire motor needs to be cleaned up. I suspect its coming out. Gene
     
  13. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 46,694

    squirrel
    Member

    That's kinda piss poor....no wonder it's giving you trouble.
     
  14. Well I've gotta say, as shitty as the results ended up being, I'm glad you have been following through and updating the thread and actually following the given advice. Too many threads like this get started and never finished disappearing into the depths of the hamb.
     
  15. Ok, now you know something and can continue on.
    If you got the gauge with the right fittings you can diagnose further.
    If your valves aren't closing, there will be zero compression.
    It seems congruent thru all cylinders (except your low one) and that sort of points to something that will effect all cylinders equally. Few possibilities there and only a few- 1 clogged intake manifold in or under carb, 2 bad valve timing due to timing chain troubles. 3 evenly worn flat cam lobes, evenly sticking/lazy valves/springs, evenly worn rings, evenly stuck rings. Notice those are listed in likely possibility.

    Here's how to eliminate those possibilities.
    Look for blockage under carb, can you see the bottom of intake ? Any debris ?
    Oil the cylinder thru spark plug holes & run compression test again- if it goes up significantly after oil you have a ring problem.
    Google piston stop test and mark your balancer, you can't trust the marks on an old balancer enough to warrant spending money. Now bring bring # 1 up to the mark you made with compression and both valves should be closed, check with straight edge across top of valves. Then roll The engine over 1 revolution to the mark again, now both valves should be open slightly if not and one valve is closed you have a valve timing problem most likely caused by some issue with the chain.


    You can add air into the cylinders and listen for the escape route, this tells you where your compression is going. I'm guessing its not going any where and most likely possibility is a jumped timing chain.
     
  16. 1971BB427
    Joined: Mar 6, 2010
    Posts: 5,767

    1971BB427
    Member
    from Oregon

    Back when I worked for the local Cadillac dealer in the 60's, the old timers would pull the rocker arms off an engine that had sat a long time and give the top of each valve stem a sharp rap with a plastic or rawhide mallet to seat the valves and unstick them. After a few raps they'd reinstall the rockers and turn the engine over to check compression, and it usually came up. If it didn't then they'd pull the heads and address the bad valves. Might try this before pulling the engine apart.
     
  17. MERRELL
    Joined: Nov 17, 2007
    Posts: 381

    MERRELL
    Member

    Bad coil or plug wires?


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  18. ^This would sure be worth a try.^ I think I'd start by leaving the rockers on at first. Then generously spray around the valve stems and springs with some solvent or penetrant. Let it sit and soak for an hour or two and then crank the engine over a few times. Then spray it down with penetrant again, wait a few hours and repeat the process. After a couple days of this routine check the compression again, at least on a few cylinders, and see if there's any improvement.

    If it acts like it might want to start and run, you might consider doing an oil change before running it for any length of time.
     
  19. Sort of like the cluster **** going on with flight MH370... sometimes we just never know what happened.

    I suspect that some people just give up.

    Bob
     
  20. 3spd
    Joined: May 2, 2009
    Posts: 541

    3spd
    Member

    I helped my friend get the engine running in his Frazer Vagabond that had been sitting for awhile 5/6 valves were stuck and we ended up using a dowl through the spark plug hole to hammer the valves down (this was a flathead) but a few were still sticking so while he cranked the engine I would pop the valves back down when they stuck and eventually they all freed up and got 130 psi across the board.
     
  21. stimpy
    Joined: Apr 16, 2006
    Posts: 3,547

    stimpy

    the mallet trick works wonders for old motors . use ATF as it's detergent factor will help unglue any varnish . ( you can also put some in the cylinders too to help loosen a sticky ring ) . also I would check the intake for residents if the car sat outside , as I have had a fair share of critters taking up residence in old farm cars at the motel de engine .. and they some how worked there way into the cylinders too . I would see about finding someone with a borescope to inspect the cylinders to see if the walls are chewed up with rust or pop the heads off and take a look inside before you accidently damage it more .
     
  22. 50dodge4x4
    Joined: Aug 7, 2004
    Posts: 3,535

    50dodge4x4
    Member

    I've had the carb off, the intake is clean (but wet) under the carb as far as I can see in every direction. There was no sign of critter infestation under the hood, but there has been stuff done under the hood in the past year or less, before the car arrived here. There was a new cap & rotor on the motor, it has fairly new hoses and a nice clean air filter. Who knows what it looked like before the guy we bought the car from got it. Over all the car is pretty straight and clean. Even the original headliner has NO holes in it. The door panels look good, and there is no sign of water leak inside the car, except the rusted driver floor, and the trunk floor under where a carpet was sitting. The trunk rain gutter was full of leaves, so I cleaned them out and after a couple hard rains lately, the trunk appears to be dry now.

    We did put oil into some of the cylinders before we did anything else. Two of the low compression cylinders are ones we couldn't get oil into. The odometer shows 98046 miles, I suspect the rings are probably not great, and a sloppy timing chain would not be surprising. The condition of the motor bearings is also in question, given the amount of crud in the valve cover I pulled off. Some black goo, which I expected, and some white crystallized stuff I've never seen before. The motor needs to be cleaned up inside, and we can't do that while its in the car. I believe, at this point, we are going to pull the motor and at least pull a head to see what the cylinders and valves look like. We will probably pull the oil pan and look at some bearings and do a visual on the timing chain. We will either rebuild the motor or put something else in the car. (It belongs to my son, and its his money we are spending.) He wants to drive the car this summer. The motor was going to be a quick start up and see if we thought we could get by this summer with it. Since it won't start, given what we have found this far, we need to move forward.

    Any thoughts about how we can get the stuck distrubuter out of the car without killing it? I've been hitting it with PB Blaster about every other day, still doesn't want to move.

    Thanks for helping this old guy remember all the trouble shooting stuff. Its been a long time since I've had one put up this much of a fight. When we don't do this stuff for years, we forget what we think we used to know. Gene
     
  23. oldwood
    Joined: Mar 13, 2010
    Posts: 914

    oldwood
    Member
    from arkansas

    I just got my '59 Dodge Custom Royal started 2 weeks ago. It was last tagged in '72. I did all of the usual stuff before I decided and she finally
     
  24. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 29,878

    loudbang
    Member

    Be careful if you use the mallet trick. One bad swing and your keepers, spring and retainer could be flying across the shop never to be seen again. Go ahead ask me how I know. LOL :eek:
     
  25. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,055

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    For the better part of 40yrs I've been in restoration which demands the best options to remove and save select parts to either restore or duplicate. There's been 2 methods that worked very well on all but the impossible, and that's a 50/50 mix of trans fluid and acetone or a torch and some candle wax. With the 50/50 gig you want regular trans fluid, not synthetic. Use it like any other penetrating oil. The candle wax, you want to use the discarded candles that the Mrs usually throws away. I have blocks of straight paraffin but the candle "bones" seem to work better, faster. Obviously be careful with the torch as you're on top of the motor where there's gasoline:eek: I'd throw a wet rag over the carb myself. Warm the area well, not blazing hot but hot enough you can't touch it for more than a second or less. Melt the wax at the base and let it stand for a short spell. I usually grab a sip of coffee or take a smoke break. Do it again and once done try to shock the dist base with a plastic hammer. It might move right away, you might have to persuade it some, but it almost never fails. Good luck...
     
  26. Remember hearing an old trick about spraying the distributor housing with a co2 fire extinguisher with the hope of shrinking the housing just enough to break things free. Maybe even one of those cans of "compressed air" for cleaning electronics would work if it was tipped at an angle while spraying. Never tried it myself but it sounds feasible.
     
  27. Mowogler
    Joined: Nov 18, 2011
    Posts: 41

    Mowogler
    Member
    from UK, Surrey

    The engine that took me longest to start / diagnose had a missing hot spot plate between the inlet and exhaust manifold. Good ignition, timing, fuel, compression but would fire once or twice then die. How about a leak in your brake booste giving you a vacuum leak?

    P


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