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Technical 62 413 kicking my butt, can't get it to run

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 50dodge4x4, Apr 14, 2014.

  1. 50dodge4x4
    Joined: Aug 7, 2004
    Posts: 3,535

    50dodge4x4
    Member

    Hi all, my son bought a 62 New Yorker with a 413. We bought it not running. We have a new battery, and are maintaining the charge with a battery charger. We have changed the oil & oil filter.

    The motor cranks over with the key just fine.

    We pulled the plugs, they looked OK, just old. He have since replace them with new, proper, Autolight plugs. We put about 3 shots of oil in 5 of the 8 cylinders (couldn't get the oil can contorted enough to get oil into the other 3.) then spun the motor with out the plugs in it. I have a hand held compression gauge, the 5 cylinders I could get the checker in, tested a 80lbs on the 4th bump. The other 3 have enough compression to blow your thumb off the hole cranking through every time, and we can feel it suck our finger into the hole just before the compression blows it off.

    The car still has a single point ignition on it. The points are fairly new, high quality, points & condenser (not cheap china crap), and are properly set. I get a spark out of the coil every time I manually open the points, and also get spark out of the coil as the motor cranks over. The disturber is stuck in the block and has not moved for many years. With the cap and rotor on, I get spark at the plugs. I ground the metal body of the plug with a jumper wire to the motor block and insert one of the plug wires off the motor on the plug and crank the motor and visually see a spark jump the gap. Did this with 3 of 3 different plug wires, have no reason to believe the other wires won't have the same outcome.

    I have brought several cylinders up on compression (blowing my finger off the hole), and the rotor has pointed to the correct wire terminal on the dist cap every time.

    I have spark reaching the correct plug at the same time that cylinder has compression. With compression, feeling a finger being sucked into a cylinder just before compression and the rotor pointing towards the correct terminal on the cap, I can't believe there is an issue with the timing chain.

    We can put fresh gas through the carb, and we are not even getting a pop.

    I pulled the top off the carb (an AFB) and it was full of old smelling fuel and had some dirt on the bottom of the float bowls. I pulled the carb off, dissembled the carb, blew out all the passages ( the gaskets were not very old) and reassembled the carb with a new base gasket. We pulled the tank, had it boiled out, replaced all the rubber gas lines and installed a new filter. We have added 4 gal of fresh gas to the tank, poured a little fresh gas into the carb, still nothing. Pulled the carb again and pulled the top off (it was full of fuel again) and dumped that fuel on the ground and lit if off with a lighter. It burned well. Reinstalled the carb, added more gas, still nothing.

    I advanced the plug wires around the cap one position and dumped gas down the carb, it would kick back against the starter at every cylinder, like one would expect from advanced timing. Properly located the plug wires, still no run, nothing but cranking.

    Then I retarded the wires around the cap one position, and tried again, this time I got a few pops through the carb. Locating the plug wires to the proper location gave me nothing. Dumping a lot of gas down the carb resulted in wet spark plugs that would still show a spark across the gap when pulled out of the motor and grounded.

    After it sat for an hour, we shot some starting fluid through the carb (we had to go to the store to buy some), but still nothing. Added some more gas, just to be sure, after the starting fluid didn't work, still nothing.

    What am I missing? This thing should run, even poorly at this point would thrill me! I'm pulling what little hair I have left out.

    The car has a fairly new looking oem muffler and a fairly new still mostly shinny, tail pipe (it is a small diameter single exhaust). Could a plugged exhaust be causing this no run condition?
    Help! Gene
     

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  2. spanners
    Joined: Feb 24, 2009
    Posts: 942

    spanners
    Member

    WHEN YOU PUT FUEL DOWN THE CARB ARE YOU HOLDING THE BUTTERFLY OPEN AND GIVING IT A DECENT SLURP? Sorry, I wasn't yelling at you, I accidentally hit the capitals lock.
    To me 80lbs seems a tad low but the thing should still fire unless the dizzy is 180 degrees out. If it's got hydraulic lifters they may have bled off so the valve timing will be all over the place till they pump up.
     
  3. Mowogler
    Joined: Nov 18, 2011
    Posts: 41

    Mowogler
    Member
    from UK, Surrey

    Is the timing off? I know you say the distributor is stuck in the block and hasn't moved for many years but if it sounds like one of the few things you haven't checked. If compression is low and the timing is off then you may simply not be hitting the mixture with a spark when there's enough compression for it to ignite.

    Compression+fuel mix+spark+timing

    If all these are within spec it WILL fire

    Compression sounds low, fuel mix should be ok, spark sounds ok, timing you haven't checked.

    Let us know how you get on

    P





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  4. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,252

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    You have done everything I would do and you should be getting it to fire.

    How good is the spark? That is where my attention would be going first. Also, if the plugs get coated with oily gunk they will short out and the only way to clean them is by sandblasting.
     
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  5. Zerk
    Joined: May 26, 2005
    Posts: 1,419

    Zerk
    Member

    The ballast resistor okay? It'll crank like a bandit and not start when that goes bad, and you will tear your hair out.
     
  6. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 46,374

    squirrel
    Member

    how hot is the spark? a good test is to cut the ground electrode off a spark plug, if it can fire the test plug out of the engine, then it should have enough jolt to fire a plug in the engine under compression conditions.

    A bad condenser will do funny things, too.

    And if you fart around with it for a while, you can foul the plugs to where it won't start, even though they look clean. I've got a few running by buying another brand new set of plugs after fixing all the other problems, put the new plugs in, starts right up, where it wouldn't make a pop with the old "new" plugs.
     
  7. Gene try this,by pass the resistor and run 12V straight to the positive side of the coil then crank it again. It is a 12V car with points and should get 12V to the coil during the start sequence, then go back to resisted voltage after it is running. many old cars don't have that circuit operating properly and don't get 12V to the coil on start.


    Oh and 80 is a little low, it shoud,start and run and may come up after you drive it but 80 psi is a little low. Especially for a pre smog RB.
     
  8. sqhd
    Joined: Sep 9, 2006
    Posts: 71

    sqhd
    Member

    another trick you might try, put your acetylene torch in the throat of the carb, turn on the acetylene and crank it over. I had a 383 dodge that would not start when it was rebuilt, but once it started on the acetylene, it would start and run on the gas after that.
     

  9. That is an old fuckin trick. I have not heard anyone mention it in ages and you are 100% correct. I don't have any idea behind the physics if why it works but it does.

    Thanks for the reminder. ;)
     
  10. KenC
    Joined: Sep 14, 2006
    Posts: 432

    KenC
    Member

    So true, esp with Mopars, notorious for the resistor opening. Used to have one in my toolbox all the time for emergencies.
     
  11. hipermax
    Joined: Nov 1, 2013
    Posts: 41

    hipermax
    Member
    from NC

    I knowing sounds dumb but have you checked to plug wire routing? I've had a few come from the engine shop with some wires swapped around, most of the time it at least pops and tires to fire it depends.


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  12. A plugged exhaust won't keep it from starting, staying running yes.
    A plugged intake will keep it from starting.

    Old engine, start with a compression test, your finger ain't gonna do it.
    If it won't fire on starting fluid, at least pop and putter you have a mechanical compression problem or an electrical ignition problem.

    Start with the compression test, that's easy to do, eliminates lost if tail chasing.
    Next trouble shoot your ignition system, if its old stuff replace the consumables aka a tune up.

    Verify compression then F A S T . Fuel air spark timing.
     
  13. I haven't heard that one in 40 years....

    They'll also light up off carb cleaner sometimes. A last resort is starting fluid, I've had more negatives (blown up starters) with that than positives.

    Things to check, make sure the points are clean and not oxidized, also inside the cap where the rotor rides can be green. I would consider an immediate carb rebuild/replacement and run it off a remote gas can.

    Possible that something has taken up residence in the exhaust system. You could try to drop the exhaust as close to the y-pipe as possible and see what happens.

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2014

  14. He did check compression on 5 out of 8. Couldn't get into the other plug holes. Which if this has air is not suprprising, those old compressors were huge.
     

  15. 80 psi compression - yank it out.
    Oh that was with a hold in the hole rubber tip doohickey - not conclusive enough method.
    Get a real gauge and run it again.
     
  16. birdman1
    Joined: Dec 6, 2012
    Posts: 959

    birdman1

    one thing to never forget with these old cars, no matter what brand, is that ther is a good reason they stopped driving it. we have to figure out what that was! Have fun! I just bought my 19 yar old grandson a neat 1976 Ford pickup wiht a 351m. we sis get it running, but started tearing into it and found 2 badly bent pushrods. Good luck!
     
  17. tommy
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 14,758

    tommy
    Member Emeritus

    Before you go too far try squirting some oil in the plug holes just a pump or two. I was afraid of my new engine wiping the new cam so I had a friend come over to check my work. He did a compression check and it came in low I thought it was junk...we squirted a little engine oil in it, turned it over to distribute the oil and it started right up and ran fine for the break in period. I've never looked back. It hasn't started since last June so I may be talking too early:D but we hope to start it up again next Monday.

    it sounded like your engine has been sitting for a long time. It could be just dry from sitting. It doesn't cost anything.
     
  18. 50dodge4x4
    Joined: Aug 7, 2004
    Posts: 3,535

    50dodge4x4
    Member

    One of the 1st things we did was put 3 shots of oil into the cylinders we could reach with the existing oil can. The issues are with the exhaust manifolds, the steering column, and the starter being in the way.

    Pull #1 plug, bump it around until it lifts my finger off the hole, advance the motors balancer 1/2" (that is total movement) to the timing marks, the rotor is pointing at #1 plug terminal on the dist cap. The firing order is correct, 3 of us have been over it.

    I will see if i can get a real compression gauge, I fugured it should have at least started at 80 lbs with my crappy tester, though that does seem a bit low. What kind of compression numbers should i have? According to what I've seen on line (who know how accurate that is?) this thing is suppose to have a 10.0 /1 compression ratio! I find that hard to believe for a 62 model year.

    The points look almost new, they have no corrosion, no pits, no discolor, and will cause the coil to emit a spark everytime they are opened from a closed position. It has a fairly bold yellow spark, that will jump almost a 1/4" from the coil wire to ground and will spark across a nasty old plug gaped at .035. I have the same yellow spark at the end of the plug wire while cranking the motor with the key. Even with all the farting around we have done, we still have spark across the new plugs when grounding the plugs with a jumper wire to ground and lay the plug in a position so we can see the spark.

    What are your thoughts of running 24 volts through the starter to speed up the cranking speed to possibly overcome the low compression? I can do that sooner then I can get a real compression tester. It would be nice to hear it run, (even if its not well), at least long enough to be sure the trans works, and a few other things, before we get deep into a motor rebuild only to find the junk trans. We know it hasn't run since Oct last year, and probably a while before that. I suspect once it fires off, it will probably start easier the next time.

    I'm wonder if I need to pull the intake manifold off to be sure it is not plugged by a mouse nest or something. his engine compartment was very clean when we got the cr, but who knows what it was before that.

    What will acetylene do that gas or either won't do? I'm almost afraid if I drag the torch out, I might just start cutting. :eek:

    At this point, I'm leaning towards pulling it out and replacing or rebuilding it, but there is concern about the condition of the transmission too. If the motor and trans are both junk, we may go with a non-HAMB friendly Mopar drive train. Gene
     
  19. Yellow is probably a weak spark, it should be blue. Did you bypass the resistor?

    10:1 is probably correct for a 413 4bbl engine, the '60 Pontiac I had the auto trans motors were all 10:1 or 10.25:1, the manual trans motors 8.6:1.

    Which, a tester on that with high miles went off 150 or so on most of the cylinders.

    But I suspect the ignition needs some more help before anything.
     
  20. 50dodge4x4
    Joined: Aug 7, 2004
    Posts: 3,535

    50dodge4x4
    Member

    Did not run 12 volts to the coil. Didn't do anything today, it was cold and snowing all day. Looks like i have things to check.
    Thanks, Gene
     
  21. 10:1 is normal for that time period and 10:1 cranking compression should be at least 2x your reading of 80.

    Ok, let me try one more time.
    If it doesn't even putter on starting fluid you have one of two problems.

    1 internal mechanical issue
    Or
    2 ignition.

    Mechanical issue would more likely (than not) show up on a compression test.
    Rule this out first 1 its free, its easy, its informative, its saves time & money.
    Get the right gauge and you can add air to the cylinders and further diagnose any found compression issues.

    Next your ignition,
    Ok, so you don't want to spend 30-50 bucks on tune up parts. Hey I wouldn't either unless I knew the thing had good compression, Because it won't start with shitty compression no matter what you do.

    The points may not look bad, but did you check the gap? Your method of rotor pointing lets you know that you have your dizzy installed on the proper location but not your timing. Advancing the wires and experiencing starter bucking tells you something is happening but you don't know what and can only guess what it means. One guess is the plug fires before any compression builds. Retarding the wires and getting pops tells you something is exploding with the valves open. None of that is leading you anyplace.

    Getting spark to a open plug is one thing, firing the plug in a compressed cylinder is another. Everyhing needs to be doing what it's supposed to when its supposed to. Still it won't even pop on starting fluid. Ok, they do something because it pops when valves are open, here again not in a compressed cylinder.

    The only other thing I can think of it being is a massive vacuum leak and throwing your air fuel ratio out the window, but it should still putter on starting fluid.


    For some perspective, 30 mins tops to say which system is causing a no start, another 30 to pin point which component, and that's on a bad day.
     
  22. aluminium pistons and steel rings sitting a long time. i say corrosion and stuck. theres your low compression. i would get that dist. unstuck to. if it pops when you move the wires around the thing must be out of time.
     
  23. Ice man
    Joined: Mar 12, 2008
    Posts: 968

    Ice man
    Member

    I had a similar problem yrs back. Did all the stuff, turned out to be the timing chain jumped a link or two. Would almost try to start, but would not. New chain did it. Iceman
     
  24. Black Panther
    Joined: Jan 6, 2010
    Posts: 1,601

    Black Panther
    Member
    from SoCal

    Sounds like a timing issue....since the time you had it kick back on the starter is when you messed with the timing.... how about the timing chain?
     
  25. 4woody
    Joined: Sep 4, 2002
    Posts: 2,101

    4woody
    Member

    You didn't forget that the rotor spins backwards on a big block?
     
  26. slammed
    Joined: Jun 10, 2004
    Posts: 8,161

    slammed
    Member

    Kroil the cylinders. A good dose of Sea Foam in a 2 gallon jug directly to the carb.
     
  27. BadassBadger
    Joined: Oct 24, 2010
    Posts: 461

    BadassBadger
    Member
    from wisconsin

    i wouldnt be surprised if the dizzy was 180 off.... i had that on a corvair that sat for 30 years. everything checked out yet all it would do is crank and not fire. had a lifetime corvair nut look at it for about 15 minutes then he flipped the dizzy and it fired right up!
     
  28. plodge55aqua
    Joined: Jan 4, 2009
    Posts: 1,710

    plodge55aqua
    Member
    from Alberta

    Do you have the right gap on the points? open to far or near being closed will not let the engine fire.. Voltage regulator? all it takes is a single little wire to burn.. that is a common problem on old Chryslers.Plymouths... not very often does a ballist go unless the voltage regulator has surged. also... there should be a fuseable link by the firewall..... check to see if its burnt.. those do go after time..
     
  29. 3spd
    Joined: May 2, 2009
    Posts: 541

    3spd
    Member

    I bet you its your compression that is the problem. If you put oil down the cylinders does the compression come up? If so maybe try putting oil down all the cylinders and immediately try firing it up.

    With my 264 I was getting 60-90psi and that was not enough to run but when I added oil it would start. Check out post #108 on this thread where I got the engine running in my Buick: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=604550&page=6

    The whole thread is a good read but sounds like you know more about the basics than I did so it might not be necessary.

    Ryland
     
  30. bustedwrench
    Joined: Dec 22, 2009
    Posts: 131

    bustedwrench
    Member

    A yellow spark is a weak spark. Often a weak spark that you can see when you remove a plug from the cylinder,is not strong enough to fire under compression.
     

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