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60 Falcon with a 302

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Phoenix24, Nov 22, 2019.

  1. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 30,454

    loudbang
    Member


    Neutral drops on a MANUAL transmission?
     
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  2. Phoenix24
    Joined: Nov 21, 2019
    Posts: 101

    Phoenix24

    I've seen people bring it up to 5k and drop the clutch, and my car being a mechanical clutch, I don't even want to think of the destruction!

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  3. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 30,454

    loudbang
    Member

    AH a neutral drop is when you have and automatic transmission and have it in neutral and rev the engine to some crazy RPM then DROP IT INTO DRIVE with the engine still at High Revs.
     
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  4. Phoenix24
    Joined: Nov 21, 2019
    Posts: 101

    Phoenix24

    Yeah, a friend of mine, her dad was saying that they would do that when he was in high school. We were talking about this C6 transmission at the time, he said that thing would hold up to it somehow. That it was bulletproof

    I was just saying that I've seen insane people just abuse the heck out of their cars like that.

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    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
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  5. Nova Thug
    Joined: Jun 9, 2012
    Posts: 180

    Nova Thug
    Member
    from SG Vizzle

    Nice Falcon. Love the styling of early ones..! With a V8 and a manual transmission it should be a blast..

    If you have the 3.70:1 rear end gears you should be in a pretty good range for power and highway cruising..

    One of the first cars I drove was my grand fathers 71 Torino which had a really spunky 302. I don’t know what differential gears it had but it would getup and go really well. It was a fairly stock car.. Nothing looked to be modified though it could have had a gear change as it did have a trailer hitch from a previous owner.. I just know that car had something mine didn’t.. A more responsive throttle peddle for sure..
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
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  6. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,273

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama

    I can stand it no longer......;)

    A car like yours with a manual transmission and a 5K clutch "drop" you'll hear a big clang and then the distinct sound of metal pinging on the pavement. You'll need a broom and dust pan to sweep up the transmission and the 8" rear axle. Also there's the car, it's quite possible such abuse may break stuff loose in a lightly built unibody car such as the springs, rear frame member, floors.

    You have a little biddy car with a really gigantic engine in it. I don't care if it's a 1978 engine. Consider that engine's HP vs the 1960 144 six. The 302 has what, 3 times the Horsepower?

    Back when I was first into cars, 1970s V8 engines were what we used. We would take a '70s V8, remove all the pollution crap...(all the 70's early pollution stuff did was choke the engine and make it near impossible to tune up).

    A 70s stock V8, a good intake, a performance 4bbl ( toss the 70s smogger carburetor) shoehorn this into an old car.....Boom.....Instant Hot Rod.

    If you want to go further......headers.
    Further still....a performance cam upgrade......

    Stock based Small Block Ford Performance....

    SBFs have limitations due to head design....they just do. With that said they still can perform and perform very well with the right set up. '60s Ford Performance, 70s-80s Aftermarket Performace grinds ( Crane Isky Edelbrock Schneider) ....these are still available. Many will poo-poo these grinds as old tech. Here's the thing, these grinds were designed to improve the performance of the stock (old Tech) Ford engine. See the connection.;) Most of these will have relatively low lift (not exceeding .500) but a long duration comparatively.

    Vintage intake and not so vintage designs.....Many of these were built for the SBF just like the cams.....

    Dual Plane...

    Edelbrock Performer..... It's the same as a '60s stock iron intake without the weight. The stock 4bbl design was good so this is a good choice for a intake if you do not have a stock 4bbl intake.

    Weiand Stealth... for the SBF, The best Dual Plane street performance manifold.

    Single Plane...

    The Original Edelbrock Torker 289.....
    Single Plane and it does very very well with stock Ford heads. It does not have the umf down low but hold on as it's reaches it's power curve. So-so on an automatics but it's a great choice for a manual. That's what it was designed for....a manual transmission. It's the only single plane I would consider for a SBF, stock heads and a manual transmission. The Victor Jrs and Torker IIs cannot match the performance of the old 289 Torker on stock heads.

    My 50 needs to be gone through. It has not stored well. I had to keep it outside at my old place and it's just time to go through and correct the ugliness. I may go back to the Flathead and use the 302 for another project...

    The engine is great.


    It's a pretty much stock '68 302. Standard bore... new standard bearings. All I did was replace the pistons with flat tops. (#1 piston skirt was broken off the original piston)
    Weiand Stealth Intake with a Holley 1850...
    It has a Crane Fireball 294 Camshaft....Identical to the 1969 Ford Performance Cobra Kit Cam...C90Z-6250-C.
    http://www.holmanmoody.com/cams.html
    Iron manifolds.
    The transmission in this truck.....the 1950 F1 top shift 3 speed. Basically it's the same transmission as the 1939 Ford transmission. It's not really known as a strong unit but it does fine if you drive sane.
    Rear 3.73 Dana 40....
    That old Truck will freaking fly. It's scary. That engine combo will push it far far beyond the capabilities of the design. It's raw, it's dangerous, it's for adults only. I love it.

    If a warmed over stock 302 will push an old F1 up to Ludicrous Speed....
    What will it do to your little Falcon.
     
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  7. Phoenix24
    Joined: Nov 21, 2019
    Posts: 101

    Phoenix24

    Yeeeaaaaaah, compared to the stock i6, it's probably around 3x the power. I definitely am going to need to reinforce the body, probably starting simple with subframe connectors.

    I didn't even think of the idea of old tech being built for old tech. It makes complete sense as it's optimised for it. I don't really know what is in there right now as of the cam or pistons, but it has a wiend X-Celorator single plane intake. Sense we put the right sized carburator on it it sounds waaaay better (750 that the guy before put on it to a 600), but I haven't been able to drive it due to it not having a seat installed at the moment.

    I think it should perform well as is, but I started this thread to ask for little tips for tuning, like the mechanical timing advance change, that usually get forgotten or are insignificant/obsolete on new cars. It hasn't disappointed and has taught me things and pointed me in the right direction for little things like headers to someday projects like performance heads!

    If things begin to brake then I will probably upgrade as I replace the parts, same thing with your pistons ;). My 2 biggest concerns are the transmission, as well as the rear end. Both should have relatively less stress then normal due to the car being so light, but they're both known for not being the strongest. The trans I should be able to pop toploader gears into if I need (if it's an aluminum case then I'll just go with a true toploader), and I will probably have to go with a shortened 9in if the 8in brakes.

    Either way, they both depend on how heavy by right foot is, and how quick I let out the clutch. It's going to be a fun little car, and I think it'll exceed my expectations. I just need to get the seat in to get the darn thing on the road!

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  8. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 1,261

    6sally6
    Member

    BIG question for you...........how wide of tire will fit under the rear?!
    I don't care how much HP.....what gear ratio.......3 speed....4 speed...5speed..A/T.....nitrous...whatever!
    The narrow little tires that can fit under a Falcon (I had one and a Mustang) will go up in smoke before major damage will occur to the tranny/rear end/body/suspension.
    I'm NOT saying go side-step the clutch at 5 grand but I AM saying the tires will spin before major damage will happen under semi-sane driving conditions.
    6sally6
    Trust me.........modify that ignition advance curve for CHEAP HP gains. Do it first!
     
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  9. Phoenix24
    Joined: Nov 21, 2019
    Posts: 101

    Phoenix24

    If I remember right it has 215 or 205 all around. I was thinking about possibly doing a kind of tub in the back. The rear wheel wells are almost clammed shaped and I was thinking about removing them and making something taller/wider and flat topped. If I am to make it much wider going towards the center of the car I will run into issues with the bump stop, and more importantly the leaf springs. Going the other direction, we have had to curl the lip if the fender in (see picture) and had to push the outside of the wheel well out to stop it from rubbing. It sounds janky, but we took a bottle jack and a piece of wood and stuck it between the subframe and outer wheel well. Did the job, and because the fender has some distance from the wheel well, it didn't change any outward appearance, still nice lines and no bulge in the fender.

    We couldn't fit the fender flare took bc of it being a skirt style wheel well, so we hat to take a Dremel, cut tabs in it, and band then up. Worked well it seems.

    Edit, ik there's allot of bondo in that spot, we're going to have to replace that entire fender. there's another spot on it that has a large dent with Bondo as well, so it's easier just to replace that entire panel instead of trying to patch.
    20181124_081600.jpeg

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    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
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  10. raven
    Joined: Aug 19, 2002
    Posts: 4,614

    raven
    Member

    It was late and I was tired. Should have said something about side stepping the clutch...
    r


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  11. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,628

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I built outer mini-tubs for my '60.

    It has 195/60-15s, on all 4-corners, on 15 x 7s.
     
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  12. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,283

    George
    Member

    you'll do better with a dual plane intake. Also shock tower braces & Monte Carlo bar.
     
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  13. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,628

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Keep in mind that the 1960 floor is not the same as 1961-1965. That is why you only see subframe connectors that fit '61-'65.

    I can confirm that Global West 916 subframe connectors fit on an 1960, if you trim the bracing for the bench seat.

    I have them in my 1960. I carefully notched the seat braces, so I could weld them to the connectors. This adds some stiffness to the very thin floor.

    The subframe rails are disturbingly thin, where the connector plates are thick. Make absolutely sure that your metal surfaces are surgically clean prior welding. Weld a little at a time, and allow the welds to cool. Skip around the car, until done, for best results.
     
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  14. Phoenix24
    Joined: Nov 21, 2019
    Posts: 101

    Phoenix24

    Would the intake change make that big of a difference? It's around 200 for the wiend stealth intake, and I figure I could use that towards something like headers/rigidity/drivetrain if the gain is minimal.

    I will definitely look into those subframe connectors. I noticed that everything was for the 61 model year and was curious why, but that make sense. We have a welder that my grandfather knows well, and he does good work. So I think we'll probably end up going to him for the subframe installation.

    I know you can get some bolt in under engine V8 bracing, and it already has a Monte Carlo bar up above, but is there anything else that I can do the help while we're doing the sun frame connectors? Frame rigidity, especially on a car with a much larger motor then stock, is something I definitely don't want to skim over!

    Also, I heard the hooker headers 6901 headers fit with only a little massaging. Would it be worth it to go with these over something like the headman 88400 shorties? We're going to make a new exhaust anyways due to it being shotty work with 2 different mufflers. Long tubes I've usually heard to be better in general, so if it fits, and they're around the same price, why not have the long tubes?

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    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
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  15. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,628

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Add torque boxes, like Mustangs and later Falcons.

    Dual plane intakes make much better low-end torque.

    Long tube headers are almost always better.
     
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  16. Gammz
    Joined: May 10, 2015
    Posts: 793

    Gammz
    Member
    from Lincoln Ne

    Keep an eye out for a stock dual plane intake off a 5.0l mustang. The first few years had carbs. Cheap dual plane intake and they work.
    The rabbit hole we can all go down is what heads what intake what cam what carb..... it can get madding.
    We put a stock 302/5.0l in our 1964 ranchero with a c4 transmission. A full v8 swap front end rear end sub frame connectors. Fun as hell out on the road. These little falcons don’t need much to raise some hell and a few eyebrows. Since then the Ranchero has been built even more and now gathering parts for a turbo.
    I digress..... I made our subframe connectors square tubing. Used some electrical conduit to make a pattern for the bends and then transferred to the tube. Fun little winter project. I can post up some pics if ya want. Or I can PM to you.
    Enjoy your build!!!!


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  17. southcross2631
    Joined: Jan 20, 2013
    Posts: 3,995

    southcross2631
    Member

    This will cure your 2013-10-10 11.55.36 (1).jpg rust issue and make your Falcon look cool.
     
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  18. Phoenix24
    Joined: Nov 21, 2019
    Posts: 101

    Phoenix24

    Would the stock intake do better then the wiend now? Ik the dual planes build allot of torque, but would it be worth it? Also, you could post pictures if you want.

    Also, Gimpyshotrods, I will definitely look into the torque boxes!



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  19. Phoenix24
    Joined: Nov 21, 2019
    Posts: 101

    Phoenix24

    South cross, that's beautiful! I love the gasser style, and there seems to be allot of falcons that end up being gassers

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  20. Gammz
    Joined: May 10, 2015
    Posts: 793

    Gammz
    Member
    from Lincoln Ne

    My apologies. I didn’t read your thread close enough. I assumed you didn’t have an intake on her already. I was wrong. I’ve ran the wieand single plane in the street and a duel plane stock intake. They both work. But to get the full use of a single plane ya gotta be in her. IMG_2536.JPG IMG_2540.JPG IMG_2542.JPG IMG_2543.JPG IMG_2552.JPG


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  21. chopndrop
    Joined: Feb 8, 2005
    Posts: 710

    chopndrop
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

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  22. Flatrod17
    Joined: Apr 25, 2017
    Posts: 56

    Flatrod17
    Member

    My memory's from 30 some years ago.... The car is closer to 2800 pounds or more, the trans will be just fine, but I didn't care for the 3:25 first gear, but over drive was great! The 8" rear depending on which center case it is, may hold up to some spirited driving. Should be fine for daily driving. I would look for a old Edelbrock F4B dual plane intake, very similar to the Shelby Cobra intake. The 600 carb is good. Also never cared for a HEI in a Ford, I think you could do better with a dura spark. Easier to deal with curving and no air cleaner issues. Headers, 63 came from the factory with a 260, same outside size as your 302. I always used long tube headers for a 63 Falcons in my earlier cars.
     
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  23. Flatrod17
    Joined: Apr 25, 2017
    Posts: 56

    Flatrod17
    Member

    Also you can't just put top loader guts in your trans case. The rear bearing is larger in the od case and a few other things as I remember. But a top loader will bolt up with what you have now. I have no idea what you have for a shifter, but Falcons had a forward mount for the shifter, seems to be harder to find these days.
     
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  24. Ford52PU
    Joined: Jan 31, 2007
    Posts: 462

    Ford52PU
    Member
    from PA

    love Falcons! My Dad died when I was 15 in 1972. He left behind his 61 Falcon that he used for work. As soon as I turned 16 it became mine. I foolishly traded it for a 70 Maverick in 1974. My Falcon had the 144 six , Auto trans, 4 doors, and I think Dad paid $350 for it and never spent another cent on it for 4 years. Miss that car today. Enjoy yours.
     
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  25. southcross2631
    Joined: Jan 20, 2013
    Posts: 3,995

    southcross2631
    Member

    When I built my old pro street Morris. It had a 5.0 stock bore short block with E-7 heads and an H.O. cam with an Edelbrock RPM intake and a 600 Edelbrock. It was hooked to an AOD with a 2200stall and a 3.00 gear . It worked fairly good , but lugged under 55mph around town and I had to pull it out of O/D .
    I decided I wanted to cure that so I went with a 4.11 gear and it made a new car out of it. Then I went to a .512 lift Comp hydraulic roller cam and a set of ebay Pro Comp heads that were set up by a shop in Va. for the lift of the cam. The heads were really reasonable. I paid less than 800 for the pair including delivery. At the same time I switched to a Parker single plane still keeping the 600 EDDy.
    It turned my nice little everyday driver Morris Minor into a serious hot rod , but one that still could be driven to work, still run on 89 octane gas.
    It got sold to a guy who contacted me later and said he put a 200 shot of nitrous on the car and changed to a 750 carb and it ran 10's.
    My point is you can sneak up on your 302 DSCF0955.JPG and do it in stages until you get where you want to be.
     
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  26. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 1,261

    6sally6
    Member

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  27. LM14
    Joined: Dec 18, 2009
    Posts: 1,934

    LM14
    Member
    from Iowa

    Spend your first money stiffening and reinforcing the chassis. Get the V8 parts under the front all up to snuff and forget engine improvements to start with.

    When the time for engine improvements comes, don't waste a dime on a stock Ford intake, they are junk. Don't spend money on stock Ford heads, they are junk. Aftermarket heads and a good intake are worth the money on SBF engines. Good exhaust but don't go too big with the pipes, it's a small engine and doesn't need a lot.

    My vote is get it stiff and safe then improve the engine/trans as money comes available.

    SPark
     
  28. 309106A9-8F91-4432-AB22-9A77866BEE21.jpeg 0CDD9389-C2A7-4FE5-92EB-04A3F6E63D37.jpeg This is what I’m running on my Falcon, Maverick 8” rear end, with whatever 15 x 6 series 64 wheel continue rim summit sell with 5x4.5 bolt pattern..fits perfect..
    I nervously as a sinner in church when I plopped down the $$$ for those, had me mounted up, went back to my place and put em on...breathed a sigh of relief when I mounted them up...rear rims and headers are these cars Achilles heal..
     
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  29. Phoenix24
    Joined: Nov 21, 2019
    Posts: 101

    Phoenix24

    I think that's going to be what happens, as if so far it has the V8 steering and a Monte Carlo bar up front. I want to get an under engine brace and most likely will if a family member doesn't gift one to me for Christmas lol.

    I need to get the subframe connectors for peace of mind at the very least, even if it doesn't hook enough to do anything. Driving it allot, I know it's going to take a toll, and the subframe connectors will help allot with that 60 year old unibody.

    Also, sense we've parked it, we've put a new carb on (that's about all we've don't with the motor), but also put in a new rear end, fixed the drive shaft, new leafs, new steering, front disks, and new front suspension. The tires it had before where some pizza cutters, something around 125s, that where weather checked and I'm surprised made it the trip home (about 100-110 miles). They would spin at the slightest hint of throttle, so the new 205s should be a huge improvement.

    I have a picture of how it sat with the new tires after we put in the new rear end and leaf springs (before vs after on the pictures). Sense then we've also taken off the wood trim and moved it into my grandpa's shed. 20180614_152638.jpeg 20181124_122642.jpeg

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  30. Phoenix24
    Joined: Nov 21, 2019
    Posts: 101

    Phoenix24

    Right now, the reason me and my dad are looking into headers is that we're going to get a new exhaust system. The one it has right now is all sorts of messed up, and we figured it would be a good idea to get something we want to get anyways and build the exhaust to it now, instead of having to go back to the exhaust guy later. My uncle gave me some spin tech mufflers off of his Nova that he sent off to get a full body off restoration. It had allot of rust and needed paint, he's doing the drivetrain and exhaust himself, but he's going to go with something different then his old setup. Either way, it's going to sound WAY better then right now with the 1 side glass pack 1 side standard muffler. You can see the muffler on the right of the picture, and the glass pack towards the front on the left. (Sounds like a Harley Davidson going down the street)

    Plus, I kinda want to drive it over to the shop with open headers just to hear how it sounds before vs after with that. I'll get to hear my engine in 3 different ways, which as a musician, would be pretty cool to me. 20180711_183412.jpeg

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