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56 Chrysler hemi poly questions

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by spellsinger, Sep 27, 2009.

  1. spellsinger
    Joined: Mar 10, 2006
    Posts: 30

    spellsinger
    Member
    from California

    HI folks:

    Obviously I am new here, but not to rods. I have build a few TBuckets, etc, a lot of ford stuff because I have a bunch of parts. I have a 25 Dodge Brothers 5 window coupe with a 302, and all Jaguar suspension, looks great, and drives/handles like a dream.

    Anyway, I have found a 26 three window Chrysler coupe underway now, and just scored a 331 poly motor and trans off of ebay.

    I understand these can be changed to hemis by swap of heads/ pistons. But for now, I am just going to pull it apart, new gaskets, re-ring, and bearings if necessary.

    My question is this. I am fairly certain that the hemi manifolds will fit the poly motors, so I am going to put a 671 blower on the motor. It should make plenty of power with the stock cam, etc, but any suggestions for this setup would be appreciated.

    I plan on using the mopar trans that came with the motor, it is from a 55 windsor car, and was supposed to be running when taken apart, god knows how long ago.

    Will the trans take the power? I assume about 600 horses, and I will run a ford 8 inch posi in the car that I have already. I think it will just spin the tires before it breaks anything, the 3 window coupe is pretty light in the back.

    I dont really know where to find manifolds etc for the blower setup, same for the pulleys and so forth. Is this the same setup that would be run on the 331 hemis?

    Anyway, any data or help anyone would give me would be great, this is my first attempt at putting together this old of a drive train, and sticking a blower on it to boot.

    Is it worthwhile to even attempt to use the old tranny, (3 speed, I am pretty sure), or should I just get an adaptor and use a 727 on it from the get?

    Any data about where to get headers, blower manifold, things like this? I look on ebay all the time but stuff there costs an arm and a leg.

    Thanks: Tom:)
     

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  2. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    331 can be cool as a Hemi or Poly. The intakes interchange so any 331/354/392 blower intake will fit. Availability of strong pistons is questionable. A 392 adaptor for a GM or Mopar manual tranny might be in order. Put Hemi tech index in search for lots of Hemi tech, all the block info is usable.
     
  3. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,175

    73RR
    Member

    Tom, Welcome to the 'addiction'.
    Your lead says 56 Chrysler but then you say 55 Windsor...

    The 56 Chrysler will be a 331 but if in fact it is a 55 Windsor then you have a 301. Everything is essentially the same as a 331 or 354 just a very small bore.
    Other differences from 55 to 56 that are noteworthy include the camshaft and the 55 only head gasket.

    Yes, any Hemi intake, 55-58, will bolt on to either the 55 or 56 Spitfire.
    Blower pulley assemblies for 55-56 Hemi will be the same. If you want to consider a blower package instead of piecing it together, let me know. There are also several other sources here on the Hamb who can help with blower parts and questions, just raise the flag and stand back !
    Be cautious about adding too much pressure to the stock pistons, you might get away with 5-6 lbs but I'd get nervous above that.

    No, cannot recommend using the stock trans. It will break and then you will still need to install something better, like a 727. If for no other reason, save some weight and use the 727.

    We have header flanges for the Spitfire as do others, but assembled headers are non-extistant. Nothing interchanges with the Spitfire exhaust pattern, however, there are many headers with the same port layout that you can graft onto flanges. Dust off that blue tip wrench.

    Now, grab a couple of beers and read through Scooters Hemi Tech threads:
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118764

    You will find alot of help, just ask questions.

    .
     
  4. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    Good catch, Gary!
     

  5. spellsinger
    Joined: Mar 10, 2006
    Posts: 30

    spellsinger
    Member
    from California

    Hi guys, thanks for the input. The intake problem is solved, and most likely the transmission question as well.
    To clarify what motor I actually bought, the guy said it was a 1956 Chrysler Windsor poly motor. I haven't got the numbers from him yet, so not sure what it is. According to HotHemiHeads, all 56 chryslers were 354's, poly or hemi. But apparently the Windsor is a different breed of cat.

    On other pages, and here, apparently what I have is a 331 poly motor. Rock auto lists the motor only as a 331. Anyway, that is what it apparently is, a 331.

    I have read a lot of stuff so far, apparently a late model timing chain and gears can be used with some modification, things like this.

    I have found a good 331 blower manifold for under $400. Another 2100 for a good 671 setup, so that is reasonable.

    In this thread, apparently the stock pistons will break under the boost and increased power. Makes sense. I know that normally, a stock late chevy or ford motor will hold together under moderate boost, up to about 8 psi. So are the 56 pistons just of low quality because of the extant piston casting tech of the decade, where the 70's pistons were that much better?

    I am not building an all out racer, it is just going to be a street rod with a cool blower and some snappy performance. I want to build it as cheaply as possible, it already is giving me an education on how much hemi stuff costs.

    I was planning on disassembling the motor, cleaning everything, if the taper was not too bad, put new rings and bearings in it, leave the stock pistons alone, and bolt it up with a new gasket set. It looks like this can be done for around $500 or so.

    Basically the same with the stock transmission. Clean it up, new gaskets and seals, and hope that it would work ok for a few months, anyway.

    I will be using 3.1 gears, so it should not put too much stress on the drive train if I am not getting crazy wild with the go pedal. :)

    If the transmisson goes, ok, at least I will have the car completed and running, and it would not be that much trouble to fabricate new mounts and so forth for a 727, and it would give me time to find all the adaptor plates, trans, etc for it.

    Does this sound like a reasonable plan? Just put new rings, bearings and gaskets in the stock motor, perhaps with a blower cam, and build the car around it. If it would run ok for a few months like this, it would give me time to find the pistons, etc. to build the motor more seriously.

    If it is just a waste of money to do it this way, if it is going to go boom the first time I stomp on it, I will just have to go the long expensive road.

    Any opinions are welcome. I know by experience that it takes around $6000 to assemble a project like this, get it running and driving, steering well, and stopping safely. If I can just drive it around and get all the bugs worked out, and have it dependable without a lead foot, this I can live with.

    Thanks in advance for the input.

    Tommy
     
  6. lolife
    Joined: May 23, 2006
    Posts: 1,125

    lolife
    Member

    I wouldn't make any plans until you get it disassembled. Definately junk the transmission. Go with a GM or 727.
     
  7. jimi'shemi291
    Joined: Jan 21, 2009
    Posts: 9,499

    jimi'shemi291
    Member

    Gary & George wouldn't steer you wrong. I sure agree about the old PowerFlite trans. My only gripe about the stock '56 & earlier Hemi cars (too bad the Torqueflite wasn't out in, say, '54 or '55!). Save yourself headaches and pass it along to somebody who's doing a restoration.
     
  8. R Pope
    Joined: Jan 23, 2006
    Posts: 3,309

    R Pope
    Member

    The iron Torqueflite can handle a 392 with dual 4's, I think it will live behind your 331, even with the blower, if it is in good condition to start with. They were a good unit, just damn heavy.
    Love the three-window! They were a one-year only style in Chrysler's six cylinder line-up. I have one of them. Was slated for resto, but I think there's a 360 in its' future! Unlike most '20's cars, the frame is plenty strong enough to handle lots of power.
     
  9. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,175

    73RR
    Member

    A couple of thoughts.

    The stock pistons, in terms of 1955, are good quality. The current question is what condition are they now in? How many miles on the engine, how well was it treated, what do the existing rings and grooves look like, how tight are the rings in the groove???
    How much taper is in the bore? Because of the oil quality in the '50's the bores on moderate mileage engines will usually taper. I have measured as much as 0.020" on a tired engine and as little as 0.005 on others.
    So, can you safely put 8psi on a 50 year old piston?

    Have you priced the parts for the old trans? If you are 'rebuilding' the stocker why not put the same money and energy into a 727? No, adapter packagers are not cheap, but then neither should your labour be when you finally need to make the swap and build new mounts and make a new driveshaft.

    If funds are tight then put the engine/trans back together w/o the blower and see how well it works. It will not be as 'spirited' as a proper rebuild, but, who knows, you might like as is.

    .
     
  10. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 6,250

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Yes, the iron TORQUEflite can handle some power, but in this case he has the 2-speed POWERflite, which is a different transmission, and much less power-friendly.
     
  11. jimi'shemi291
    Joined: Jan 21, 2009
    Posts: 9,499

    jimi'shemi291
    Member

    I agree, the PowerFlite ran smoothly, and I didn't have a breakdown, BUT I knew the tranny had limits, even with a 200-hp enigne in my '55. So I always babied it AND wished I had a 4-speed! (That was "back then." LOL)
     
  12. scootermcrad
    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
    Posts: 12,382

    scootermcrad
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Thanks for linking him up guys!

    Welcome to the HAMB...

    By the way, why not just run it as a Poly?? I think you are going to find it will cost more than you're thinking to convert it to a Hemi AND build a blown motor on top of that. I have seen it done, but it doesn't happen often.

    Polys are cool. Be different, build a blown Poly motor. It will be more than enough for that little car and it will be unique.
     
  13. spellsinger
    Joined: Mar 10, 2006
    Posts: 30

    spellsinger
    Member
    from California

    HI guys: Thanks for all the info. Regarding changing to a hemi, that is not in the plans. I like the look of the poly, and after all in 56 it was an "improvement".

    Regarding the trans, I have a transmission guy that likes me, he builds lots of trans for my blown motors, and get a good deal. But, as has been noted, it will be heavy, and in this game weight = horsepower. I dont have any trouble fabricating trans mounts etc, but I think it is best to spring for the adaptor and put in the 727 from the start. So that is the road I will go down, and see if someone wants the original transmission for a stock setup. It will be good for someone, I am sure.

    It was interesting the comment about the quality of 50's oil. I never considered that before, but of course that would be a major factor. Older engines would have more wear, simply for that reason.

    I dont know the miles on the motor, from the looks of it, not that many, I would guess under 100k. I will know more when I get it apart. I have put together some 64-65 289 ford motors that have sat for a decade or more, and oil leaks everywhere. Gaskets just too old. So that is why I want to completely dissamble the motor, and put in fresh gaskets. Nothing more disenheartening than spending a lot of time cleaning and painting things, and then have oil or water everywhere. Even worse, noticing you have no oil pressure on the freeway a hundred miles from anywhere. :)

    Thanks for the comment on the strength of the frame. I have a 26 Dodge 5 window I put a hot 302 in, and you can see the unboxed frame tweak under load, and I braced it pretty well. I built another 23 Dodge rat, but it had a 34 chevrolet pickup frame, and I boxed it, so was plenty strong for a dual quad roller 302 setup. Actually, that picture is in my profile. It was called the "swamp witch" on a thread a couple of years ago. I sold it to a friend of mine, he is still roaring it around getting smiles, and warnings from cops, but no tickets. :)

    So, nice to know with some front bracing, and good cross members, this frame will work ok. Takes me forever to box a frame with a grinder, sawsall, and cut off tool. :) Don't want to spring for a flame cutter, you know, speed parts calling for the money. :)

    Another question regarding camshafts. I am assuming that the lifters will more or less be junk, I have had little luck going with old lifters in the past. I understand that some engines and cam combinations will require adjustable pushrods. Is there a cam that will work ok with the blower, not requiring a new set of pushrods? I like the rump rump sound, but not enough to spend a few hundred over the price of a cam and lifters for it.

    So, any recommendations for a cam and lifters that would fall in this category?

    And one final question for this post. I understand that the 56 motors did have hardened valve seats. Of course now, only unleaded gasoline. Is it possible to get away with just a cleanup and lapping of the valves/seats from my local expensive machine shop? Of course, assuming the stems and guides are not worn too badly. I think normally, you should be able to get 50k miles, even on soft seats before having to buy new valves, etc. Hopefully, a freshening of the valves, and new seals will last me a year or so, particularly if I put some addittive in the gas every once in a while.

    Thank you all for the answers, and I am very happy to have joined this community. Of course, I will post pictures and results of the project, and in a few months, we will all get to see the pictures of it running.

    Oh yeah, one more thing. Any idea where to find a 26 chrysler trunk lid? I was going to make one, but would rather have a real one.

    Thanks:

    Tommy
     
  14. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    The Poly wasn't an improvement, but an attempt to reduce costs. cam; Order a new blower cam through Hot Heads, Poly & Hemi cam blanks are the same blank, early 361/413 lifters work. If block & heads haven't been milled you probably won't need adj rockers/push rods.
     
  15. jimi'shemi291
    Joined: Jan 21, 2009
    Posts: 9,499

    jimi'shemi291
    Member

    In a slight quandry here, guys. Ran onto a complete '57 or '58 Chrysler with Poly engine, everything but carb & air cleaner. Chrome pretty much all gone & weeds everywhere, so I couldn't be sure which of the two years.

    For starters, was this about a 325-CID? Second, I know a lot of guys like the Poly AS IS. But just for s---s & giggles, what Hemi heads would interchange? (I'm assuming the four-barrel intake would mate up fine with the right hemi heads here; and, yes, I realize reliefs would need to be ground).

    I've been looking for a DeS hi-deck and getting nowhere fast, SO would the Chrysler Poly be an okay choice instead? (Generating about the same hp & torque, etc., I mean.)
     
  16. When I put together the engine in my Avitar, a Stock '57 DeSoto Adventurer Hemi (345 CI/345 HP), I wanted to set it up in my '55 DeSoto the same way Chrysler would have done it if they'd made an Adventurer in '55. This included using the '55 Powerflite transmission, dash mounted shift lever, 6V system etc. Long story short, in the '56 Chrysler 300 the Powerflite transmission came Standard, and the Torqueflite was the Optional automatic. I had my '55 Powerflite rebuilt to '56 Chrysler 300 specs, figuring that if it held together behind the 331, then it would work for my 345. Besides, I wasn't going to pound on the 345. The only differences between the Stock Powerflite specs, and the "Beefed" 300 Powerflite specs were an extra clutch and steel set, and 5 more lbs line pressure...that's it. The clutch drum had to be machined out just a bit, to accomodate the extra clutch set, and the line pressure increased for firmer WOT shifts. It's been operating fine for over 5 years now. It's a very well engineered and tough little transmission, even in Stock configuration. The other consideration is that '56 and up Powerflites are push button (cable shifted) transmissions, and are a royal pain to get a manual shifter to work on...if at all...
     
  17. And yes, you do have hardened exhaust valve seats, but you won't know about valve work until you pull the heads...
     
  18. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    57-8 Chr Poly is a 354, 285-310 HP depending on specifics. the 325 was a Dodge used in Dodges & '57 DeSotos. Probably doesn't have hardend seats/valves. Would be acceptable in place of a DeSoto hemi power wise, just a matter if it's acceptable to you!
     
  19. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,175

    73RR
    Member


    Tommy, a couple of thoughts...Blowers make up for alot of mistakes in the cam profile department. If your stock cam is in decent physical condition you could certainly use it and if the lifters are not damaged you could clean them out and use them (only on the original lobe). No lopey noise but you save a couple of bucks.
    New cams are available from several sources (including QEC) and you get to pick and choose profiles. The other option is to regrind your cam, with new lifters and adjustable pushrods...similar money either direction.
    New pushrods, either fixed or adjustable, are required with reground cams. A new cam will not require adjustable pushrods be we strongly recommend their use in order to properly set the pre-load on each and every lifter.


    .
     
  20. jimi'shemi291
    Joined: Jan 21, 2009
    Posts: 9,499

    jimi'shemi291
    Member

    George wrote: "57-8 Chr Poly is a 354, 285-310 HP depending on specifics. Would be acceptable in place of a DeSoto hemi power wise, just a matter if it's acceptable to you!<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->"

    I hope my question wasn't taken as hijacking SpellSinger's thread. I just thought my question was/is related pretty directly. George, you've given me some eye-opening news here, man. And, for sure, I have to mull it over (abandoning the DeS dream for the Chrysler). Obviously, gotta weigh pros/cons, what's possible, what is possible but NOT wise to do, etc.

    Now, if this is a 354, a number of Hemi parts would interchange, wouldn't they? And, if I did go the Hemi-conversion route (thinking hypothetically here), then both 354 and 392 Hemi heads would (?) fit this motor?

    [Off hand, I guess I'd be leaning to Scooter's observation that the Poly IS a pretty keen, unique motor unto itself !!! But, one HAS to ask that conversion question, just so one is AWARE of what's possible, right? (Can't blame a guy for dreaming, eh?)]
     
  21. The '56 Poly is in fact 331. You can use the same adapter that the hemi uses to hook it up to a small block 627.

    Yes you can put the hemi heads on it, you have to go to bigger head bolts which requires opening the head bolt holes up. But the whole hemi thing is prestige for the most part. The pollies ran just fine. Huffing it should wake it up pretty well.

    Forged pistons are available, PM me if you want and I'll tell you where to look.

    Sounds like fun.
     
  22. earlymopar
    Joined: Feb 26, 2007
    Posts: 1,608

    earlymopar
    Member

    IMO, a 4-71 is a much better "fit" for this application and engine size. It is also dimensionally smaller and would allow for more engine bay space and with mating parts. The displacement of the 4-71 will give you all you can handle in that engine.

    - EM
     
  23. jimi'shemi291
    Joined: Jan 21, 2009
    Posts: 9,499

    jimi'shemi291
    Member

    Again, Tommy, thanks for allowing me to intrude on your territory without biting my head off!

    George, looking up the numbers, sure sounds like the '57 Poly 354 produces more horses on one 4-barrel than the 330 DeS Hemi could do on one 4-B (not talking about major mods from stock, of course).

    Pork&Beaner said the Polys ran just fine. Well, sounds correct! Closest comparison I found was a '56 354 Hemi (4B) @ 9:1 comp. getting 280 hp. The '57 Poly 354 (4B) compares VERY well @ 9.25:1 comp. getting 295 hp.

    Before, really hadn't even CONSIDERED the Poly option, only Hemis. Needless to say, THIS sure gets a guy re-evaluating some things & earlier assupmtions!

    I'll have to go back and get the correct numbers of the engine to be sure it's a '57 or '58. But, it does have its 4-V intake still in place. We'll see!!! Thanks for the thoughts, EVERYBODY. Any further comments very, very welcome.
     
  24. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,175

    73RR
    Member


    ...not familiar with this...


    Jim, Do not consider 392 heads on a 331-354 block unless your plans include an intake with independant sides or a custom fab piece...There is no cast manifold made for this combo.

    .
     
  25. jimi'shemi291
    Joined: Jan 21, 2009
    Posts: 9,499

    jimi'shemi291
    Member

    GOTCHA, Gary. CHECK on the NO 392 heads!!! I though, indeed, that the ol' lo-deck/hi-deck monster might rear its head here. (That's why people ask Qs before expending tons of effort on something that is HARDER than sheet to make actually work, eh?)

    MANY thanks.
     
  26. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    Custom U-Fab or twin log,plus....you'd have to run the Chevy water pump & a custom width water crossover as the OEM W/p nor the OEM 392 crossover would no longer fit.
     
  27. jimi'shemi291
    Joined: Jan 21, 2009
    Posts: 9,499

    jimi'shemi291
    Member

    Thanks Gary & George! NOW, I NEED TO ASK WHAT MAY SEEM A SIMPLE QUESTION. (TRIED TO CHECK FOR DATA BUT COULD ONLY FIND HEMI ON QUICK CHECK.)

    ON THE 354 POLY, THE PISTON BORE, CON RODS AND CRANK ARE THE SAME BASIC PARTS AS IN THE 354 HEMI, CORRECT? (Meaning bore & stroke, 'course.) THANKS, GUYS!!!!
     
  28. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    Yup, just the pistons & push rods are different. Everything else in the hemi tech section applys to the rest of the block.
     
  29. jimi'shemi291
    Joined: Jan 21, 2009
    Posts: 9,499

    jimi'shemi291
    Member

    Many thanks, George! Well, that 3.9375" IS a pretty hefty bore, eh?
     
  30. hotrodjeep
    Joined: Feb 3, 2009
    Posts: 867

    hotrodjeep
    Member
    from Tama, Iowa

    So it was you that outbid me.......
    I had my Dad watch it for me while I was out to dinner, He called me with like
    2 minutes to go and then you out bid me. Dad didn't have enough time to
    reboot and bid again, so I lost, you won. So I had another beer and
    felt sorry for myself the rest of the night.

    Ah screw it, at least you'll make good use of it. Glad to see it went to a good home.

    Good luck with the project,
    Jeff
     

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