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Technical 49 Plymouth Questions

Discussion in 'Traditional Customs' started by moe00, Jul 8, 2014.

  1. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    Hi I'm new to the site and I just got a 49 Plymouth. I'm just getting into classic cars and I'm 28.

    It was running when I bought it (two weeks ago) and I had a friend change out a number of things (spark plugs, fuel pump, distributor cap, rotor, points, coil, choke, and cleaned the carb) Well before I went to get it the cap was off and it isn't running now.

    My questions are.....
    There's a 12v negative ground battery, isn't this wrong? I got it like this.

    Its turning turning but will not start and I'm stuck. There's no spark in the new coil when I ran wires straight from the battery to it. There's no sparks in 2 spark plugs I checked. The set the points to .020. Is there something else I can do?

    I want to convert the points to electric ignition, is there any kits for a 6v?

    before he messed with it we ran a full tank of gas through it now I can't get it started. 20140513_184924.jpg 20140518_190642.jpg
     
    Model T1 likes this.
  2. sobpunx
    Joined: Feb 7, 2009
    Posts: 314

    sobpunx
    Member

    I think you need a 6 volt ppositive round battery, hopefully you didnt fry anything. Im sure someone will chime in with more information.
     
  3. Hey, congrats! And welcome! Unfortunately I don't have the answer to your question but be sure to think about posting on p15-d24.com. It is a website specifically for our era of Mopars. They are great guys and will most likely know what the issue is. Nice to see another old Mopar getting back on the road!
     
  4. plym_46
    Joined: Sep 8, 2005
    Posts: 4,018

    plym_46
    Member
    from central NY

    It was running when I bought it (two weeks ago) and I had a friend change out a number of things (spark plugs, fuel pump, distributor cap, rotor, points, coil, choke, and cleaned the carb) Well before I went to get it the cap was off and it isn't running now.

    Wow Some Friend. If the dist was out and the cap was off and the wires pulled you need to start a Start.

    Pull the plugs so you can turn the engine by hand. Look at the head over number 6. You will see a standard pipe plug. Remove the plug and insert a piece of stiff wire about 8 inches long. #1 and #6 travel as a pair, the wire will ride on #6 piston. When 6 is at TDC so is 1, but it may not be on compression. When#6 is at TDC and the pointer on the block lines up with the timing marks on the crank pulley, then #1 is at or coming to TDC compression. When #1 is at TDC compression the rotor on the dist should be at or near the 7 oclock position in relation to the dizzy body. The dizzy can only go in correctly or 180 degrees out as its drive tang fits into a slot on top of the oil pump.

    With #1 at TDC and the rotor at 7 oclock, you can now put you plug wires on the cap in proper firing order starting with the tower that lines up with the rotor being #1. Then you are assured that you have a basic static timing set up and your plug wires are on in the correct order. (There is one caveat here in that if some one has been into the engine and not put the oil pump back in at the factory setting.) The above process will still work but the rotor may not be in the 7 oclock position, but if you do the process and start from there you should be OK.

    Hint Electrical accessories, starter genny dizzy should have Id tags in red for 6 V. green for 12 V. If your car is still factory (red tags) it should be 6 Volt positive ground. If so the wire from the ign switch should go to the negative terminal on the coil and the positive terminal should go to the distributor..

    Don't forget to replace the pipe plug when you reinstall the spark plugs. Once you are assured that the plugs are wired correctly you should do a thorough trouble shooting procedure before you attempt a start. Confirm power to coil with ignition on, confirm spark at points with ignition on, confirm spark from coil to ground with ign on and starter cranking, dist cap on, and plugs disconnected, confirm spark from plug to ground with ign on and starter cranking. If all check out reconnect plugs and attempt start.
     
    lothiandon1940 likes this.

  5. missysdad1
    Joined: Dec 9, 2008
    Posts: 3,014

    missysdad1
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The car may have been converted to 12-volt negative ground operation...and your buddy may have fried the points during his "tune-up" and rendered it inoperative if he bypassed the ballast resistor.

    If he didn't remove the dizzy you won't have to reset the basic timing (but if he did, follow plym_46 advice above). Go back over the basics, being sure the wiring is correct and none of the electrical components has been compromised. Don't forget the condensor - a bad one can give symptoms just like what you describe.

    I suspect you've got a very simple problem. All you need to do is look for a very simple solution.

    Good luck!
     
  6. Arthur1958
    Joined: Jun 29, 2009
    Posts: 230

    Arthur1958
    Member

    1. The easiest thing to fix would be a backwards distributor. Its drive is flat and fits into a slot (down inside the engine). When it is removed, it can only go back correctly or exactly backwards (180 degrees off).

    To fix this, just remove the retaining bolt and (with the cap off) lift the distributor until the tab comes out of the slot (about 1/4") and turn the rotor to point in exactly the opposite direction; then put it back in and retighten the retaining bolt.

    2. The electrical system was originally 6-volt with positive ground. If it was running when you got it with a 12-volt battery and negative ground, then a previous owner has converted it. The starter and ignition system do not care which voltage and polarity you use; but the charging system does. I cannot see your generator or alternator. It might have been switched along with the battery (and voltage regulator, if it is still a generator) or the previous owner might even have just disconnected it. You should check this out before proceeding.

    3. If your friend disconnected the battery and reinstalled it, and neither of you knows for sure which pole was grounded before, then you should polarize the system (just google it and you will find out how).

    4. Of course, most of the wires will be as old as the car. It is always possible one broke. Start with the one from the coil to the distributor and see if they are all still connected.

    5. If those do not fix it, do all that timing stuff described above. Eventually, you should do that anyway. There is a timing mark on the crankshaft pulley, so you can use a timing light.

    6. It would be wise to locate the oldest professional mechanic in town. He will know how to set the timing, polarize the charging system, et cetera. It would also be wise to get a Motor’s Repair Manual that covers approximately 1949-59. You can find them on eBay. Good luck.
     
  7. Arthur1958
    Joined: Jun 29, 2009
    Posts: 230

    Arthur1958
    Member

    1. The easiest thing to fix would be a backwards distributor. Its drive is flat and fits into a slot (down inside the engine). When it is removed, it can only go back correctly or exactly backwards (180 degrees off).

    To fix this, just remove the retaining bolt and (with the cap off) lift the distributor until the tab comes out of the slot (about 1/4") and turn the rotor to point in exactly the opposite direction; then put it back in and retighten the retaining bolt.

    2. The electrical system was originally 6-volt with positive ground. If it was running when you got it with a 12-volt battery and negative ground, then a previous owner has converted it. The starter and ignition system do not care which voltage and polarity you use; but the charging system does. I cannot see your generator or alternator. It might have been switched along with the battery (and voltage regulator, if it is still a generator) or the previous owner might even have just disconnected it. You should check this out before proceeding.

    3. If your friend disconnected the battery and reinstalled it, and neither of you knows for sure which pole was grounded before, then you should polarize the system (just google it and you will find out how).

    4. Of course, most of the wires will be as old as the car. It is always possible one broke. Start with the one from the coil to the distributor and see if they are all still connected.

    5. If those do not fix it, do all that timing stuff described above. Eventually, you should do that anyway. There is a timing mark on the crankshaft pulley, so you can use a timing light.

    6. It would be wise to locate the oldest professional mechanic in town. He will know how to set the timing, polarize the charging system, et cetera. It would also be wise to get a Motor’s Repair Manual that covers approximately 1949-59. You can find them on eBay. Good luck.
     
  8. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,578

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Your car came with a 6 volt positive ground electrical system. Check if you have an alternator or the stock 6v generator. This will tell you if someone changed it to 12 volts.

    If not you will need a 6v battery and possibly to polarize the generator. If it has an alternator you will have to check further to figure out what all was changed.

    Oh ya, you should know the left hand wheels had left hand thread bolts. In other words they turn the opposite direction to come off. But be careful, some cars have been changed over the years in fact, sometimes just one wheel.
     
  9. JeffB2
    Joined: Dec 18, 2006
    Posts: 8,896

    JeffB2
    Member
    from Phoenix,AZ

  10. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    Updates
     

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    Model T1 likes this.
  11. Lookin good. Do you have plans to change the wheel and tire combo?

    -Chris


    Sent from my flip phone.
     
  12. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    Thanks! Going with the 15" Cragar smoothies. Probably a 3-4" whitewall tire.
     

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    1952B3b23 likes this.
  13. I just deleted my entire post. It is of no use at this point is it.

    Ok I see you painted it did you get it running yet?
     
  14. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    Sucks.....block is at the machine shop. Gonna be a full rebuild. It was running before I took it out. Going with dual carb dual exhaust
     
  15. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    Got my disc conversion brake brackets in. Parts list ordered!
     
  16. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    .
     

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  17. James Curl
    Joined: Mar 28, 2006
    Posts: 370

    James Curl
    Member

    The cars used three different distributors and the points, rotor and cap are different for each one. The parts must be ordered by the model number of the distributor. One distributor uses a mirror image of the points, so if they are installed in the other distributor the timing will be way off. You should get yourself a shop manual for your car, they are available on the web, or try to find the information you need out on the web.
     
  18. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    I have a manual. The distributor I bought many people have used before me, no points.
     
  19. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    Got the block back. Time to put it together. Its 60 over.
     

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  20. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    All the machine work with 2 sleeves cost $830
     
  21. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    Its coming together!
     

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  22. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    Do I thread lock or dip the head bolts in oil? I used some rust cleaner on them, they're bone dry.
     
  23. I just did the piston rings on a '52 Plymouth 218 ci flathead and i used Permatex #2 on the head bolts. I checked with a few guys (on the p15-d24 forum) who have done this for years and years and thats what they recommend. Here's a link to the stuff:

    http://www.westmarine.com/buy/perma...e=&network=g&gclid=CKva6q2688UCFdYXHwodthAAYw

    -Chris
     
  24. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

  25. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    Wait gasket seal on the threads?
     
  26. Yup. It's tried and true by many over on the p15-d24 forum. Myself included.

    Some of the head bolts go into the water jacket so the sealer ... Seals the threads. This permatex 2 doesn't harden up like some other gasket sealers it always stays some what gooey. So head bolt removal after its dried isn't a problem. Good luck.

    -Chris


    Sent from my flip phone.
     
  27. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    Question.......on this 217 motor is there a front seal? There's a huge gap that I don't believe should be filled with silicone.
     

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  28. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    Never mind its for oil flow for the timing chain.
     
  29. moe00
    Joined: Jul 8, 2014
    Posts: 38

    moe00

    Had an emergency.....
    Have a 49 Plymouth I was restoring. Original 217, a full resto machine shop. Motor with all the parts has about $3700 in it, new dual Offenhauser intake, Stovebolt mini HEI, dual Cater carbs, Cast iron headers, rebuild kit and more. Motor isn’t complete. New sun visor, headliner, door panels, and front/rear seats upholstered. No rust on body, paint isn’t show quality. Have a front dis brake conversion kit along with the new rotors, calipers, brakes etc not installed. New shock relocation arms, not installed. New wire harness kit, started running wires. New Cragar Chrome Smoothie Wheel 15"x7” 5x4.75. I have both front glass, clean clear title, inspected, with plates. The car was running and driving when I got it.

    How much is it worth?
    Dallas TX
     

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  30. Well its not a popular body and the motor is incomplete basically an unfinished project. About a grand.

    Running and driving when you got it is kind of a moot point now isn't it. Finish what you started drive it enough it know it is solid then sell it with good conscience to someone who wants it.
     

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