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Projects 41 Plymouth P11 Build

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by DukeCity41, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. DukeCity41
    Joined: Nov 12, 2015
    Posts: 23

    DukeCity41

    Fellow members
    After much research on this site you have given me the information and confidence to build this car.
    This car was missing the steering arms, steering linkage, gearbox and column. There was a flathead engine in the car that had been cannibalized. The car itself is in pretty decent condition I have all the body parts. I bought a 318, from what I gather it came out of a 72 Plymouth. I pulled me a 727 tranny out of a 77 dodge van. Since I have no steering I am going with the cavalier R&P. While looking at this engine it appears to have a forward sump oil pan. From what I understand I will have to put a rear sump pan on it to accommodate the R&P. A rear axle from a 98 Explorer is in the car, its just snugged up for now so I can roll the car. Have been and will be visiting u-pull it for these parts.

    I will be having questions so bear with me.
    Newbie
     

    Attached Files:

  2. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,086

    George
    Member

    The 6 was rear sump. Van & Pick-up 318s are rear sump. Get the pan, oil pick up tube, dipstick & dipstick tube.
     
    rockable likes this.
  3. Latigo
    Joined: Mar 24, 2014
    Posts: 607

    Latigo
    Member

    Looks like a great project. Good solid car to start with. Like the plan for the 318. I'll follow along.
     
  4. Crease
    Joined: May 7, 2002
    Posts: 2,879

    Crease
    Member

    I would suggest the Tex Smith book "How to build Chrysler, Plymouth Dodge Hot rods". I put a 40 Dodge convertible together about 20 years ago and it was very helpful. I don't get on here much, but message me if I can be of any help.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  5. BuiltFerComfort
    Joined: Jan 24, 2007
    Posts: 1,620

    BuiltFerComfort
    Member

    That's a solid plan. Check kingpins and such for wear now. Disc brake conversions are available - HAMBer olddaddy has a kit that use Volare rotors so you can keep the same lug pattern.
     
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  6. gene-koning
    Joined: Oct 28, 2016
    Posts: 1,494

    gene-koning
    Member

    Looks like a great project. I've been through a few of these old Mopars through the years. If you have any questions, just ask, there is more info here then there is in that Text Smith book.
    Yes, rear sump pan, pickup, dipstick & tube off a Dodge truck, 318.
    Yes the Cavalier rack, your going to need steering arms for the Plymouth, and tie rods from something. Most suspension parts are still available.
    Yes, a disc brake conversion, someone is making a kit that uses your hubs and rotors off an Explorer. You can buy a u joint flange for the Explorer rear end that will accept the small u joints from a Mopar driveshaft. Gene
     
  7. moparob
    Joined: Jan 8, 2009
    Posts: 362

    moparob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NOVA

    The project is looking good bud, that's a great start and I'm glad your dropping in a 318 in lieu of a 350..... hahaha.

    One thing I would suggest is offsetting the engine an inch or so to the left/pass side to accommodate the steering so you don't have to snake the steering shaft around the exhaust header and starter. I wish I had off set mine more in my 50 dodge.

    Someone mentioned earlier to check your king pins.... absolutely now is the time to do it they are simple to press out/ in and ream.

    You will need to track down a set of steering arms or have a set made up if you know a machinist or good fabricator. The rack & pinion from a cavalier is an excellent choice but the tie rod ends are metric so you have to swap them out to fit stock steering arms if you find some.

    Mark at Scarbird makes nice front disc conversion kits that use the original hubs, make sure you measure your mounting holes there's 2 different drum backing plate mount bolt patterns for the spindles depending on if they were 10" or 11" drums.

    I adapted some 87 dodge diplomate hubs/rotors to my spindles using oem bearings with a spindle sleeve to mount the inner bearing on the spindle I turned out on a lathe. And made a mount from the stock drum backing plate mounting holes to mount the caliper off a early 70s molar E body.

    There's a wealth of knowledge here on the Hamb in the volumes of threads.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  8. BuiltFerComfort
    Joined: Jan 24, 2007
    Posts: 1,620

    BuiltFerComfort
    Member

    And don't forget the p15/d24 forum, they deal with this era as well. Several members have done this rack & pinion conversion.
     
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  9. HiHelix
    Joined: Dec 20, 2015
    Posts: 381

    HiHelix
    Member

    GThats gonna be one amazing ride!!!!!!!!!
    [​IMG]
     
  10. moparob
    Joined: Jan 8, 2009
    Posts: 362

    moparob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NOVA

  11. andydodge
    Joined: Sep 28, 2008
    Posts: 939

    andydodge
    Member

    One thing that a lot of people find when doing a rack & pinion install in a non R&P car is that the turning circle tends to be quite large even with a R&P more direct steering........this is because a rack tends not to have the same "throw" that a normal steering box has and consequently the steering arms are not "moved" sufficiently outwards and therefore steering the car.........I have had a R&P in my 1940 Dodge since 1973 when I installed the 318 poly and R & P.......my solution which I have since found a better way was to have the steering arms shortened 1" by an Automotive Blacksmith, ie welded and reforged.......they have lasted 43 yrs so far........but a better way I have seen pics of is to mount the steering arms forward of their normal position on the mopar stub axle.......this works assuming that you are using some sort of disc brake caliper adaptor that also uses the lower 2 steering arm bolts and the single upper bolt on the 41 -56 stub axle............instead of the steering arms bolting onto the lower 2 bolts as mentioned they bolt onto the stub axle one bolt forward with another, extra bolt from the caliper bracket to the forward steering arm bolt hole........this essentially "shortens" the steering arm tie rod hole to king pin pivot point measurement and brings the steering arm tie rod hole closer to the centre of the car.............which allows for the shorter rack & pinion throw and therefore a tighter turning circle................anyway hope this makes sense.........Andy Douglas.
     
  12. DukeCity41
    Joined: Nov 12, 2015
    Posts: 23

    DukeCity41

    Went to u-pull it today.
    Got the rear sump oil pan off a 85 pickup.
    Worked on a 93 caviler to get the R&P. Got everything loose but could not pull out the R&P. The power booster was hitting the lines. Ok, take off the booster- couldn't do that either looked like it was riveted on. I forgot my line wrenches and my open end wrench would not take off the lines. Looked at AutoZone and O-Reilly's and a new one seems affordable. When I look at the new ones it does not seem to have a passenger side mount or the tie rods. I'm going to go back tomorrow with a few different tools and try again. Ant suggestions?
     

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  13. BuiltFerComfort
    Joined: Jan 24, 2007
    Posts: 1,620

    BuiltFerComfort
    Member

    I've never done this R&P swap but I always try to get *everything* at a junkyard.

    Get all the mounts. Get lines, if you can, for lengths and sizes.

    Get everything out to the back of the wheel if you can, perhaps you can adapt it to yours - but more likely you will need steering arms as AndyDodge says. Tie rods perhaps.

    If you're going with a power rack, get the pump etc. You may be able to adapt it to the 318 by making new brackets.
     
  14. I did the R&R swap on my 52 with a Pontiac rack that was power Bad mistake ! way to fast for the car. on the 48 I have now I think I will go with a Toyota box off the truck is small and a good box. I also used a 318 no power house but lots of miles on her and the last I heard she was running great complete running gear from a 78 diplomat almost bolt in rearend. my master was newer Mopar yard parts. I look forward to the build
     
  15. desertdroog
    Joined: Nov 16, 2001
    Posts: 967

    desertdroog
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  16. 41 C28
    Joined: Dec 17, 2005
    Posts: 1,766

    41 C28
    Member

    Another old Mopar in the works is a good thing.
     
  17. DukeCity41
    Joined: Nov 12, 2015
    Posts: 23

    DukeCity41

    Set the engine and tranny into today. The motor is off set to the passenger side 7/8" . This is what I get when I pull the motor forward and the motor mounts touch the frame. I still have to weld the motor mounts in and fabricate a tranny mount. I think I have everything pretty much in the correct place. The carburetor mount is at about 1to 2°, pretty level. Not too sure if the trans has to go up or down but I think its correct. I put the angle finder on the output shaft and I have about 4 or 5°. The distance from the top of the trans to the floor board is about 1".
     

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  18. Those front engine mounts are too cool! BEAUTIFUL work.
     
  19. DukeCity41
    Joined: Nov 12, 2015
    Posts: 23

    DukeCity41

    The motor mounts came from Butch's Cool Stuff
     
  20. DukeCity41
    Joined: Nov 12, 2015
    Posts: 23

    DukeCity41

    Pulled the engine out again and welded the motor mounts in place, seems to be in the correct place. Still need to weld the trans mount pieces together but will do that once I'm done with the steering. Put a rear sump oil pan on the motor and wired the rack approximately where it will be going. I put the steering column in but it still needs to go lower about a 1/2". Everything seems like it needs to go in and out of the car a dozen times or so but just trying to be patience (at least half the time maybe).
     

    Attached Files:

  21. DukeCity41
    Joined: Nov 12, 2015
    Posts: 23

    DukeCity41

    Put the disc brakes on, got the rack mounted in, and the column to rack gearbox linkage hooked up.
    Looking at how I'm going to hookup the tie rod linkage. On the original steering linkage there is a short adjusting link on the drivers side and a long one on the passenger side. The cavalier links are different shapes, one is pretty straight and thinner in diameter and the other is bent and larger in diameter. While working on the drivers side the straight cavalier link seems to be right in line. What I'm thinking is, I have another short original adjusting link: put the short adjusting link on the passenger side- get another straight cavalier link and go from there. The car is not on the wheels so I will put the tires on, let the car down and see what kind of clearance's I will be working with.
     

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  22. gene-koning
    Joined: Oct 28, 2016
    Posts: 1,494

    gene-koning
    Member

    If you still have the original tie rods from your car, I might suggest you make a center link that bolts to your rack, and matches up with your car's original inner tie rod ends. Replacement original tie rod ends are still available through several auto parts stores. Using the original tie rods and connecting them to a center link attached to the rack inner connections will eliminate the possibility of you creating bump steer. Gene
     
  23. andydodge
    Joined: Sep 28, 2008
    Posts: 939

    andydodge
    Member

    Gene-koning's suggestion to use the original tie rod is a good idea........get a 2nd original tie rod and use them as a basis to attach to the Cavalier racks inner pivot point.......it may have to be shortened but a suggestion here is to shorten it on the Right hand Thread side which leaves the Left hand threaded side o/k and then standard Plymouth left hand threaded tie rod ends still fit.......on the shortened side use standard right hand threaded tie rods, a right hand threaded 5/8th or 11/16th tap should be easily found.......don't forget to check whether you have enough "throw' using the rack.........see my post on this thread on 6th Jan.........you look like you are doing a great job........regards, Andy Douglas
     
  24. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,220

    RodStRace
    Member

    As mentioned, this has been done here before and it looks like you are doing well!
    I would suggest checking radiator fit before much more is done.
    This image shows the water pump nose is almost even with the holes in the crossmember.
    [​IMG]

    The radiator is centered over those holes on my '40 and I bet your '41 is too. I've read IIRC that the '46-'48 radiators can be swapped forward in the upright to allow for the longer Chrysler sixes used in Canadian Plymouths. On my '40, this was NOT the case due to the upright being tapered front to rear and having a horizontal cross bar. I can't run a mechanical fan or an electric behind the radiator due to the tight gap. I plan on using a pusher electric, but that is not the best solution and may cause overheating issues. Make sure you can at least remove/install the pulley without having to pull the entire front clip! Better to find out now. Also make sure the crank pulley fits the crossmember notch and allows the belt to be removed.

    The guy whose car was the subject of the Tex Smith article is a HAMB member, Missysdad1
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/search/108740536/

    Here's a great thread from Rockable who did a 41.
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/41-plymouth-sb-mopar-engine-swap.498434/

    My album
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/media/albums/project-1940.131/
     
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  25. DukeCity41
    Joined: Nov 12, 2015
    Posts: 23

    DukeCity41

    Been about a year but just steadily moving along. There are some things that didn't turn out as planned but happy so far.Don't know if I can pull anything without removing something but I've had it together and apart so many times I should be pretty good at that. Will be using an electric fan as my radiator is really close to water pump.
     

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  26. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 2,220

    RodStRace
    Member

    Looking good!
    Glad to see you are still moving forward, Mine is and has been in Neutral too darn long!
     
  27. DukeCity41
    Joined: Nov 12, 2015
    Posts: 23

    DukeCity41

    Well its been just about another year but the 41 is coming along. I've been installing the wiring harness and
    and i should be ready to fire it up real soon.
     

    Attached Files:

    Erv here... likes this.
  28. 41rodderz
    Joined: Sep 27, 2010
    Posts: 3,342

    41rodderz
    Member
    from Oregon

    Interesting that you are that close to the radiator. I had a 1940 Plymouth business coupe and ran a 1955 DeSoto hemi and had plenty of space for water pump and fan. Good luck with yours.
     
  29. gene-koning
    Joined: Oct 28, 2016
    Posts: 1,494

    gene-koning
    Member

    There is still time to move that upper shock mount to a bracket welded or bolted on the frame, it will improve the handling a lot. With the shocks connected between the upper and lower control arms, the front end feels like it floats, a lot.
    Your motor was put in where the right head was close to the firewall. If you would have clearanced (made an indentation with a big hammer) to the firewall towards the passenger side of the recess in the firewall to allow more cylinder head clearance, the motor could have been moved back about 3" and would have solved your radiator clearance issues. Its those things we learn after a few failures. I've built a few of these cars. Gene
     
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  30. rockable
    Joined: Dec 21, 2009
    Posts: 2,651

    rockable
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Gene is right about the shock mounts. I have a pair of Old Daddy's if you would like them. You pay the freight.

    Nice build. Keep it going, there are a million details to work out.
     
    RodStRace likes this.

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