So a friend of mine has a 63 409 all original low mileage truck motor that he has offered to sell me. It is the 252hp with the original Saginaw 4 speed bolted to it. Still has original 4 barrel bolted to it. Has a passenger car water pump and original dizzy. Suffix code is qd. Also to come with the motor is a 348 tri power intake with three Rochester deuces. Guessing they would have to be rebuilt. Had the valve covers off, heads are clean. I can buy it for what I think is a very fair price with the deuce intake. Question is what do u guys think it would cost me in some new performance parts and labour to bump it up to 350hp range. My understanding is this block will be the low compression with the small port heads so guessing some new heads, cam and better ignition will get me in that range. Any other thoughts or opinions please share. Where I'm on the fence is how far along I am in my build going with a sbc including my new lake headers on route from Matt at gear drive! Have lots of parts already accumulated. Not that the direction can't be changed, but if I am going to have to spend another $4-5000 in parts and machine work to get this motor to where I want then it doesn't make sense vs what I can do with a sbc. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
You wouldn't be asking if you didn't want to do it. Alternative, finish the SBC car then build another car around the 409 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If it has the 333 heads, they will have a small combustion chamber in them and it might not have the two valve reliefs cut out of the cylinder block. If so, it would make a good engine. You can still get high compression pistons for it if it does have the 2 relief block. What year is it? If it still has the old truck dizzy then it has a governor on it and you need to get rid of it.
I am very tempted to do it so yes that's why I'm asking. Always loved the 409's and know it would look great in the coupe with the three deuces on it. And yes I obviously know I can build the sbc a lot cheaper. Just wanting some opinions on how much work will really need to be done to bump up the numbers. Thanks 56don I will find out what the number is on the heads. It is an early 63 block. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
that 09 would really, REALLY set that coupe apart from the rest of the crowd. not gonna take a lot of power to make that coupe fast {power to weight ratio}. seems like a no brainer to me if you don't go crazy with the rebuild on the 09. good luck!!!
I just snapped the couple pics I posted, sorry. Really the whole motor is very clean considering it's age. If only it was a 400hp 409, we wouldn't be having any conversation! Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
I think he was hinting that a Saginaw 4 speed is from 1966 or later, and it also wasn't installed in trucks.... so I wonder what the transmission is supposed to be original to? although it doesn't matter, at all.
Put a set of 11 to one pistons in and with the dual cut out block it will be about 10 to one and run it! Gary
You will break the Saginaw if you build too much power with the 409 or even a stout small block. So add that into the build cost.
Ya my frame is set up for an auto anyways but you are definitely right from everything I have read. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Whilst big ponderins goin on it calls for some ambient music... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...ered-hot-rods-drag-cars-and-racecars.1032470/ I think its something like this...a 4 speed, duel quad, posi-traction, 409...
Saginaws need some love. They are a nice shifting trans. If you can't bang shifts with a Saginaw, get another hobby. Yes, they are not the strongest but I remember a customer with a 63 Canadian Pontiac with a 340 hp '09 and when I saw it it had a Saginaw 4 speed complete with some ratty shifter [can't remember exactly] Anyway one day he showed up at the shop without the car looking for a trans. Of course, I had to see the Saginaw. When he brought the corpse in I found that the mainshaft bearing extension on the front had been snapped off clean. There was no pilot bushing at all in the '09 and the Saginaw was out of a Vega. It had lasted for several years. He had arms like Popeye and the same attitude.
Buy it! Just have the bigger valves put in the heads, open the bowls up and buy a cam for it. The three two manifold doesn't fit the large port heads so your heads will be fine. It's about the wow factor anyway, I assume your not looking to join the 200 MPH Club or go Outlaw Street Racing with it.
63 truck will have one valve relief and 333 heads that are port sized the same as the 340 HP passenger. But you will need to delete the exhaust valve rotators. I would put in some forged pistons and new cam. You can easily go to 400 HP with off the shelf pistons and cam. I would price complete engine and tripower around $2700 as is. I would buy it at that price!
This started life as a truck engine. Ross makes lightweight pistons that will get you where you need to be on compression. You can install larger high quality valves and work the heads to get better flow, but you wouldn't have hard seats like the aftermarket heads. The tri-power won't make the horsepower of an after market intake, but the wow factor is there and they fit the truck heads with no problems. I don't see 350 hp as any problem. The 409 is a big bore/short stroke engine. It should rpm as high as you reasonably want to turn it, if you build it right with light weight pistons (heavy pistons from the factory caused high rpm problems from the factory) and good parts. I even opened up the standard truck heads to a stock high performance intake on this engine. I don't know if it helped, but it was port matched. Here's the junk head I used to see if it was going to work or not. I had to drag it out of the junk pile to take the picture. You do lose the intake bolt between the ports on the deal.
I think that the truck motor can make good what is killing you is going to be compression. The heads can be made to breath with a dremmel. Too many guys fall into the high dollar aftermarket heads trap and have forgotten that we used to make some of our HP by our own sweat. Camshaft prices are going to be comparable for either the 409 or the SBC. Here is something to think about, it takes torque to launch. The 409 makes good torque even if it will never turn the revs of a hot SBC. Even at a lower HP rating you are going to make plenty of torque so you could leave off the HP numbers rely on torque and gear it accordingly.
Thanks for all the feedback and input guys, I appreciate it. Going to talk to and engine builder i know and pic his brain on if he is comfortable working on it. Runs a great shop and is one of the top pro mod racers in western canada so i am guessing he will be capable. I agree, i could put in the car with the tri power on it to start and then plan a build down the road. Any more suggestions are welcome.
Get ready to spend some money if you build this thing. I'm building one right now. Even on the 'cheap' it's more than any other Chevy. Cheapest way to build yours (imo) is: -use the stock crank -good rods and light 10:1 pistons (accounting for the single notch in the block) -drill and tap the 333's for screw in studs -one piece stainless valves -healthy flat tappet cam (NOT a thumpr) -edelbrock single or dual four intake That'll get ya 350, prolly closer to 400, and it's gonna cost 6-7 grand easily, including machine work. Im no expert but I have about $5k in mine and still have a couple thou to go before it runs. Chevy W's are NOT for the faint of wallet.
Lets throw a wrench into the thought process, close your eye's and picture a Baby Hemi sitting between the rails instead of the 409 or SBC. Or maybe a 259 Poly with the saw tooth valve covers.................................
There is an engine kit on Ebay for $1100 with 11 to 1 pistons which should be around 9 to 1 in a truck block . The kit should get you into the 350 hp range.
Even if it was a 400 HP you would want to build it. Find someone that has the proper boring equipment.
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