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Technical '40 Ford p/u frame twist method and question

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by albertaboy, Oct 6, 2016.

  1. albertaboy
    Joined: Jul 19, 2013
    Posts: 131

    albertaboy
    Member

    Hello
    Actually, it's a '36 Frame going under my '40 p/u. I wanted to ensure the frame is square and not twisted. Using Westcott's instruction- link here : : http://www.wescottsauto.com/WebCatalog/Tech/2009_S_217-224_Technical.pdf

    I used this method for twist. Two stands at the back and one at the front to "float" the frame. I used the carpenter level shown and it checked level at several points along the frame until I got to the front engine mount cross member as pictured. The level is out, as shown, at that point only.

    How would you guys interpret this? typical factory flaw? or out by a mile for safety concerns. Or is this a poor method and inaccurate. Thanks in advance for your comments.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,221

    F&J
    Member

    If that very tiny bubble error is at the front, with a stand at "dead" center, you are looking fine.

    A chicken or a fat crow landing on the rail tip would get it perfect LOL


    Yes, if you box anything on chassis, just weight that error back to perfect first. Then do your welds

    Pickups are better with a frame that has some flex, so it won't need boxing beyond the firewall...and no boxing is needed in most cases, up front.

    If you are concerned, you can tweak it back without a frame machine.
     
  3. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,221

    F&J
    Member

    Go one step further that takes very little time:

    Get the front on two stands near front crossmember area. Level it from side to side perfect with shims and or weight if needed.

    Go back to see if the back is still perfect level, side to side.

    Now use the level "across" at R & L front cab mounts area, and rear cab R & L mount area. If the front is off more than back mount area, you probably have a slight swayback in engine area on one side. It would be good to know, as cab-to-fender/hood alignment will be less of a bother, later on.

    .
     
    albertaboy likes this.
  4. Make sure you X measure the frame too make sure it is square.
     
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  5. mrfliboy
    Joined: Jul 18, 2013
    Posts: 31

    mrfliboy
    Member
    from IL

    I'd be happier than .... if my frame was even half that close. LOL Mine wasn't even in the bubble. Took alot of tweaking to get it semi close. I have had no problems noticed on mine, now thats its on the road.
     
    stillrunners likes this.
  6. czuch
    Joined: Sep 23, 2008
    Posts: 2,688

    czuch
    Member
    from vail az

    My Galaxie sits on 3 jack stands.
    Goes straight, dosent eat tires, not wanting to sell.
    If I were to sell it the price would reflect the condition.
    Youre golden.
     
  7. joel
    Joined: Oct 10, 2009
    Posts: 2,126

    joel
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    F&J has good advice. The hood has to be aligned to the cowl, so the fender /grill fit to the hood will depend alot on Y brace, which sits on the front lip of that crossmember. Make it as good as you can now and you will be much happier later
     
  8. albertaboy
    Joined: Jul 19, 2013
    Posts: 131

    albertaboy
    Member

    It measured within an 1/8 inch. That's got to be good.
     
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  9. albertaboy
    Joined: Jul 19, 2013
    Posts: 131

    albertaboy
    Member

    Thanks for your help-
    Pics in order are
    Front cross member. I raised the passenger side to make it level
    Approx front cab mount
    Approx rear cab mount
    Rear kick up, highest point.

    The bubbles all look reasonably close. Thought?
    vern Oct 6 2016 002.jpg vern Oct 6 2016 005.jpg vern Oct 6 2016 006.jpg vern Oct 6 2016 009.jpg
     
  10. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,221

    F&J
    Member

    number 4 is rearmost? and should be leveled with shims/weights for the test...but geez, it is looking good.

    if you level the rear to perfect bubble, that will bring 2 and 3 a bit better....certainly close enough for normal body shims if you even need them at all.

    I never had a 33-up frame to measure, so I can't tell you how to tell if the entire chassis is swaybacked , but hidden because both sides are so close. I doubt it.

    .
     
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  11. albertaboy
    Joined: Jul 19, 2013
    Posts: 131

    albertaboy
    Member

    Sag behind the cab, passenger side. Enough to worry about?

    Sent from my SM-N910W8 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  12. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,221

    F&J
    Member

    Rather than worry yourself sick...try this:

    Run some type of strings somewhere along each rail, at some position that "shows" the "Eye" if certain parts of one rail is drooped way more, and causing concern.

    You need to get creative on how to match the twin lines. Either spacers to hold the end up, or whatever. As long as both are attached the same on both sides, and if they run close enough to the rail, you will see if it's pretty darn good, or not. You are comparing by eye, no measurements.

    A level won't give a good picture in my head, it just gives measures if deciphered

    ,
     
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  13. albertaboy
    Joined: Jul 19, 2013
    Posts: 131

    albertaboy
    Member

    Yes. Last pic is the rear most. I'll try that later tonight and post results.

    Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk
     
  14. albertaboy
    Joined: Jul 19, 2013
    Posts: 131

    albertaboy
    Member

    "Some position that shows the eye" sorry, not sure what you mean...

    Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk
     
  15. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,221

    F&J
    Member

    Many people can visualize how far off a frame difference is , by comparing the rail shape by looking at some comparative line.

    If you only use a level, then you have to lift one end of level to see if the other rail is perhaps 1/4" or whatever different. That 1/4 is measured by how far the level is lifted to get the bubble straight.

    Then do it at another spot, then imagine a picture in your head.

    It is easier for most people to use twin straight lines and as long as they are attached to each rail the same, you now can compare the dips by eye. Like "this rail has a lowest dip of 4 inches, and the other dips a lot more, as I can SEE it dips more"


    So, if the strings look pretty darn equal all the way. you are good.

    Strings also can show outward bows that you missed.

    .
     
  16. albertaboy
    Joined: Jul 19, 2013
    Posts: 131

    albertaboy
    Member

    I finally get back to this today. Effin snow here. I little early for Alberta even.

    F&J
    I ran string along the rails, pictured, if I understood your suggestion or did I get it wrong. I could not see any difference by eye but I could use that string and measure from the carpenter level to see the driver side rail sags 1/4 inch. compared to the opposite passenger side rail at approx the rear of the cab.
    Have a look at the pictures - that I hope tell the rest of the story. I do not know where to start "tweaking" .
    To get these results, I have raised the pass front approx 5/8 inch to center the level bubble, then I weighted the passenger rear corner to center the level bubble and I have a 1/4 sag in my driver side mid section. vern Oct 8 2016 014.jpg vern Oct 8 2016 013.jpg vern Oct 8 2016 009.jpg vern Oct 8 2016 010.jpg vern Oct 8 2016 011.jpg
     
  17. albertaboy
    Joined: Jul 19, 2013
    Posts: 131

    albertaboy
    Member

    Also, the string photo's do not replace being here... but I can not see "bow" of any kind when I center myself to the frame and look down the lenght and compare how each string travels in a line down the rails. The both look even.
     
  18. joel
    Joined: Oct 10, 2009
    Posts: 2,126

    joel
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You have temporarally created a reference plane, but it will change by just bolting the cab down, or maybe just adding drivetrain weight. My point is ; stock frames are not rigid because they are rivited together. I think yours is good enough as is. IIRC there are wood blocks under some of the cab mounts and the bed mounts and you'll probably have to shim the cab to get the doors to shut properly. You just add an extra 1/4" to the drivers side, or add 1/8" to driver side ans shave 1/8" off passenger side, or do nothing if the doors fit right. If you plan to "box" or make repairs on the frame, I would get it as square and level as possible and lock it in position before hand.
    BTW, the center of the X ( torque box) on 40 convertibles is completely welded on all edges in addition
    to the rivits.
     
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  19. The Ford frames were built to flex a lot, remember they did not have as good roadies today.Thats why the front fender support mounts in the center of the frame and has a spring under it. A old set of centerline gauges and a tram bar is all you need. As long as the frame is not Diamond you are probably good to go. You can check for diamond with a tape measure cross measuring and if it good I would build it. Remember if you measure off the floor it will only be as straight as the floor.
     
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  20. albertaboy
    Joined: Jul 19, 2013
    Posts: 131

    albertaboy
    Member

    Joel, I-SHOT, thanks for having a look at this. I will double check my cross measurement one more time. Cheers.
     
  21. oldscl
    Joined: Sep 26, 2012
    Posts: 26

    oldscl
    Member

    Thanks for posting your progress. This will be invaluable when I finally make some room around my place to measure up my frame.
     
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  22. patterg2003
    Joined: Sep 21, 2014
    Posts: 753

    patterg2003

    I am enjoying your build. 40 Ford trucks are special and look forward to watching your progress. There are a lot of good discussions and articles on the HAMB on getting the front end on and fitting properly.

    I have a automatic surveyors level but I really like using a water level. Some 1/2" clear poly tube from CTC, some water with a few drops of dish soap and a few drops of food colouring for old eyes. Make sure there is no air in the tube. I zip tie it to the narrow sides of a couple 1x2's so I can clamp them to things. Quick and easy to move around and compare one side to another or start with a reference point and move the level around to compare and adjust in relation to the reference. I have the water levels that go on the garden hose for longer distances.

    We just mounted a set of wings on an airplane with a 35 ft span with a water level to level fuselage and set wing heights. The struts were new and had to be drilled. The strut attach hole centers worked out to be exactly the same on both sides as they should. The water level is accurate and simple.
     
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  23. albertaboy
    Joined: Jul 19, 2013
    Posts: 131

    albertaboy
    Member

    I just cross measured again. It's square at just 1/16th off. I feel pretty good about this frame.

    Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk
     

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