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Technical 3w Larry’s suicide front axle

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by 65standard, Aug 4, 2020.

  1. Tman
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 34,902

    Tman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    That tab is the radiator mount
     
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  2. hotrodderhaag
    Joined: Jan 22, 2007
    Posts: 2,124

    hotrodderhaag
    Member

    i build mine so the tabs are in fact safety catches
     
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  3. mike bowling
    Joined: Jan 1, 2013
    Posts: 3,556

    mike bowling
    Member

    Good to hear Larry’s name brought up on here!
    “If you don’t have pictures, it didn’t happen”

    RIP my friend, I miss your humor and tough love with these
    whippersnappers!


    Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  4. fortynut
    Joined: Jul 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,038

    fortynut
    Member

    Hard as I drive and as rough as the roads are, I have to reflect on why Henry Ford built his automobiles as he did. The roads were rough and being that no one had ever driven cars before they probably drove somewhat like I do. Suicide front ends are self descriptive, and using a wishbone to support all the weight on it, as opposed to being on top of the axle makes me wonder at seventy or eighty miles per hour (pretty much keep up with traffic speed on a lot of America's highways) if parts start flying I'm seeing one of those pictures Robert Williams painted that were available from the Old Pete and Jake's catalogs. The one that has the flying Ford in it. Not saying this to change anyone's mind, because minds get made up pretty hard and that's that but be sure and have that St. Christopher's Medal blessed by at least a Bishop, alright?" And, whoever thought a rabbit's foot was lucky didn't stop to think about the rabbit that lost it? Call me traditional and let it go at that.
     
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  5. Here is how Walden uses "heavy duty" radiator mounts to double as axle catchers.
    Screenshot (19).png
     
  6. hotrodderhaag
    Joined: Jan 22, 2007
    Posts: 2,124

    hotrodderhaag
    Member

    i can see your point of view. but Mr. Ford also built these cars with un boxed chassis , 4 cylinder engines in most, not meant to go over 55mph... here we are going 70,80 or even 90 mph... even on a stock setup front end. so realistically , we are all modifying them beyond the means in which they were originally designed
     
  7. Tman
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 34,902

    Tman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Those are good points but lets also note that these "crude" sunspensions have been going as fast as 2 and300mph at Bonneville since the beginning
     
  8. Ron Plumlee
    Joined: Feb 12, 2012
    Posts: 153

    Ron Plumlee
    Member

     

    Attached Files:

  9. Ron Plumlee
    Joined: Feb 12, 2012
    Posts: 153

    Ron Plumlee
    Member

    Hope my photo shows up here....I have suicide under my Coudan, all hand built, and its based exact on what I used on a couple dirt modifieds and a sprint car. It amounts to a plate securely welded to the front cross member and a second plate with the jaws that clamp the spring. Several holes on the two plates allow to adjust ride height if needed. If this didn't break on dirt track racing for years, it won't break on the street. Advise if you need better pics. This is simple and it works.
     

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  10. fortynut
    Joined: Jul 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,038

    fortynut
    Member

    Not to rain on anyone's parade but wishbones are fabricated ovaloid tubing welded along the seam and to put the entire weight of the the front of a vehicle on one buggers the imagination. Add to this the stressing from their past lives, our old friend who never sleeps ,Mister Rust, and possibles that weaken them from the inside. I shudder to think also of changes in the molecular structure from the shrinkage that occurs when they are welded on, and can only think of tombstones with skulls with wings. The engineers who built these cars never designed them as weight bearing members. If you want it in the weeds, reverse the spring eyes, drop the front axle, notch the ends of the front cross-member for spring clearance. Or, come up another design that uses DOM tubing of a thickness that a structural engineer will sign off on. And, no I'm not a wuss. I have gone very fast and put myself in danger all on my own. But, if one of these comes apart in traffic at the speeds we now drive, whoever is piloting it won't be the only soul endangered by the shrapnel.
     
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  11. moparboy440
    Joined: Sep 30, 2011
    Posts: 710

    moparboy440
    Member
    from Finland

  12. Tman
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 34,902

    Tman
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    OK Mr Volvo driver.
     
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  13. 9B734013-A925-4F85-9D57-FC5E4C7C0FD9.jpeg 04FC090B-3802-484C-A2E6-99836076743F.jpeg The wishbones were designed to bare the weight of the whole front. I’m using ‘41 wishbones and axle and the spring sit out in front of the axle. The spring perch is just and extension of the top loop of the wishbone.
     
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  14. A72602CD-68DB-44FA-8822-41FB98560F2E.jpeg 7DD4D7D0-DB0F-490D-A8FC-19FAE2FB7622.jpeg 398A186D-603A-4A68-9B84-2971564F52B9.jpeg D45D55DC-A552-480D-A8A9-45ED4149D3B9.jpeg Here is where I’m at so far.

    Anyone know what length spring I need if my perches are 34” c/c
    Note that I’m using ‘41 ford coupe front end parts so my dimensions will be different than 1932 parts.
     
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  15. Not really. Ford used forged hangers in front of the axle, attached via the vertical perch bolts. The wishbone just happens to be incorporated on the back side of that forging.

    And this has been discussed before too: perch bolts were never designed to go sideways, just in compression.

    But anyway, 50 people will say "I've done it and I'm not dead yet..."

    Carry on.
     
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  16. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 17,234

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Are those shiney new perches forged or cast?
     
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  17. Advertised as forged. How can I tell?
     
  18. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 17,234

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Hold one end lightly with the tip of a screwdriver, and hit it with a hammer. If it rings it's forged, if it thunks its cast. Not very scientific, but that's the only way I know that can be done in my garage.
     
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  19. fortynut
    Joined: Jul 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,038

    fortynut
    Member

    I sure hope all the backyard engineers who disparage my comments on this method of hanging the front-end have Lionel train sets in their basements --- because that's the level of your engineering. The images of the perch bolt going through the side of the 'tube' show it in shear. That means the entire weight of the vehicle is loaded on the shank of the bolt. And, another point, if I may. There is an image of the wishbone after having been ground. If you look closely, you will observe the weld that holds the tubing to the forged end that in Ford's original engineering had the spring held under the front end, along with the old perch bolt/shock mount/ and stabilizing mount. This was designed by real engineers with degrees and the forgings/tubes/bolts were made from steel made in the Rouge River Steel Mill. All the changes shown are in the category often called 'Form over Function'. Or, to put it more bluntly: "Just 'cause it looks good, don't mean it's safe." And, yeah. No more beating the dead horse from me.
     
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  20. continentaljohn
    Joined: Jul 24, 2002
    Posts: 5,014

    continentaljohn
    Member

    Spark test will work as well hit it against a grinding wheel and color will tell you. If you have any doubts about it I wouldn't use it. As said that is a key component with a high stress point and would only use a original Ford .


     
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  21. dirt car
    Joined: Jun 26, 2010
    Posts: 282

    dirt car
    Member
    from nebraska

    After the fact perhaps, but couldn't the original cut off forged ends be cleaned up & repositioned ? or, perhaps ever so slight gusseting added to the fore/aft & top or what ever might ease ones mind ? ......but then as said it's been done before & is about as neat & clean an application as is & will probably be done many times again.
     
  22. continentaljohn
    Joined: Jul 24, 2002
    Posts: 5,014

    continentaljohn
    Member

    Dirt car I agree with you and originals reworked. I dont think I would weld on one as it can change the molecular structure of the material with out stress relieving it..


    Also look at the Walden front end and how the tabs will catch the axle but shocks will also hold axle in position as its not welded to the spring perches like some are.
     
  23. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 18,665

    gimpyshotrods
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    Are you an Engineer?
     
  24. fortynut
    Joined: Jul 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,038

    fortynut
    Member

    I don't need to have a degree in engineering to have the common sense to see when something is being used in a dangerous way, thus my jibe at the train set engineering; even a blacksmith knows enough to use steel properly . The history of Ford as a motor car company is available for anyone to study; so is the use of metals and structural construction. I have taken physics classes and understand when there is a conflict with the best use of the materials and methods used in the construction of mechanical devices. If pedigrees are needed to comment on bad judgement, the majority of us on the H.A.M.B. would be in a deep stink. What about you? What's your pedigree?
     
  25. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,633

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Technically, even in stock form, wouldn’t the entire weight of the front be divided between these guys?
    4EF59F0E-EEDB-4F47-8DD9-8E1F9E122D92.jpeg
    Much smaller than the perch bolt.

    the axle, spindles, perches, shackles and spring hold the weight. The wishbone locates/holds the axle assembly and controls articulation.
    I have spilt factory bones. That’s some thin material.
    Never used them to hold the spring but many do.
    I guess that’s one reason my old boss man machined bones from solid aluminum.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
    gimpyshotrods likes this.
  26. 4A027B7C-1B4D-49ED-B2E5-226716C31C87.jpeg The wishbones are very thick wall tubing. They can easily support the weight of the car and then some. I deal with structural engineers almost daily as a steel fabricator. I see no issue with the factory wishbones being used this way.

    I see no issue with using the spring perch sideways either as long as the shaft of the perch is fully supported like it was in its stock location. The bushing I made with the 11/16 hole and the same taper replicates the full support.

    If anyone had failure with this setup, it is not because of engineering.
     
  27. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,633

    anthony myrick
    Member

    I have always wondered if the wishbone holding the weight plus the spring hampered the articulation of the bones?
    Just a thought.
    But these lowered rides cruising on paved roads don’t need much movement.
     
  28. Tman
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 34,902

    Tman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I did it, the car is close to 20K miles, Many other have done it. No issues. In fact, in the modern trad rod era in the last 30 years I have NEVER heard of this stuff braeking unless it was bad fab.
     
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  29. ratrod0
    Joined: Apr 15, 2005
    Posts: 1,134

    ratrod0
    Member

    Stock hood,radiator is in the same placement, cut the grill shell alittle bit and up a little, weld some stops over the axle for safty. Look at my albums lots of pics. Raze the motor up 4 to 5" so your motors not touching the ground, call Clarke hotrods Ormond beach Photo0179.jpg Photo047.jpg
     
  30. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 5,927

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Earlier in this thread I mentioned another thread about a car with this style front end that had a spring perch fail, did you by chance find and read that thread? That might be a good idea. There was a lot of discussion about mounting the perches sideways like this, one guy with some modeling software loaded the information about the perches into his program and it showed that the strength of the perch changes dramatically when you mount it horizontal instead of vertical. There is other information about the strength that may be very helpful for you, I'd highly advise finding that thread and doing some reading, the information may end up saving your life. When one of those perches break it's all over.
     

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