Register now to get rid of these ads!

351c and 302 ?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by macs55, Jul 23, 2004.

  1. macs55
    Joined: Oct 28, 2003
    Posts: 462

    macs55
    Member

    My buddy was telling me that a 351c and a 302 have the same motor mounts and that the trannys will bolt right up to eachother. Is this true? I always thought that it was the 351w and the 302, and that the 351c was different. The reason I ask is that I found a cheep runing 302 and was thinking of swapping out my 351c in my truck. Will the 302 just bolt right in or what. Thanks almighty HAMB. [​IMG]
     
  2. hillbillyhellcat
    Joined: Aug 26, 2002
    Posts: 595

    hillbillyhellcat
    Member

    I don't think so. The Cleveland motors are totally different blocks than the SBF. You might be able to get away with using different mounts on the old brackets, I still have doubts. 351C, 351M and 400 all exchange.
     
  3. shifts
    Joined: Dec 13, 2002
    Posts: 527

    shifts
    Member

    Dont know about the mounts, but the tranny will bolt up on a 351C.DAVE
     
  4. The 351C is a tall deck small block. Some stuff interchanges and some stuff don't
    I don't think that the motor mounts are the same but you should be able to scroungs the junkyard for the right stuff to mount it up. If your ride came with a 351C then it most likely came with then low deck small block that same year.
     

  5. Narcoleptic
    Joined: Dec 2, 2002
    Posts: 5

    Narcoleptic
    Member
    from Chico, TX

    [ QUOTE ]
    I don't think so. The Cleveland motors are totally different blocks than the SBF. You might be able to get away with using different mounts on the old brackets, I still have doubts. 351C, 351M and 400 all exchange.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The tranny bolt pattern on the 351C is a "small block" pattern shared with the 302/351W and the pattern on the 351/400M is a "big block" pattern shared with the 429/460. The Ms also have a wider lifter valley.
     
  6. texastramp
    Joined: Jan 11, 2002
    Posts: 81

    texastramp
    Member

    Do you have a truck that come with a 351C stock/factory?
     
  7. AnimalAin
    Joined: Jul 20, 2002
    Posts: 3,417

    AnimalAin
    Member

    Not positive, but I think the trucks with these type of motors got 351/400M motors. These are sort of like Cleveland motors, but not exactly. During the time the Cleveland motor was in production, trucks got FE motors.
     
  8. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Your buddy is 100% correct - it is true. 351C has exact same mounts, mounting locations, & bellhousing bolt patterns & is fully interchangeable with 302. Obviously, headers are drastically different from 351C & 302.

    However, NO - I repeat NO - truck came stock with a 351C. If you have a 351C in your truck, it was transplanted in at some other time. Trucks have 351M which are similar to 351C, but not interchangeable. Well, similar is deceiving, the only similarities are the heads. Everything else is different - mounts, bellhousing, etc. So if you really have a 351M, it isn't a straight swap for a 302.

    To ID 351C vs 351M - easiest is heads. (Well, easiest is the smog sticker on the stock valve covers if it's still intact.) The forward top/inner corner of the head that is not covered by the valve covers will have a "2" or a "4" cast into it if it is 351C heads. 351M heads won't have this. The next quick visual is the top two bolts of the bellhousing that are usually visible from the engine compartment - if they're about 5" apart, it's a 351C. If they're more like 7" apart, it's a 351M (or 400M).

    351M/400M are also physically larger than 351C, but it's hard to compare them w/o one side-by-side.

    Good Luck!
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Fat Hack
    Joined: Nov 30, 2002
    Posts: 7,709

    Fat Hack
    Member
    from Detroit

    Flat Ernie is right...351C, Boss 302, Boss 351, and Windsor based small blocks use the same transmission bellhousing bolt patters, and the same motor mounts, making swaps easy (as far as bolting in the engines go...clearance may be an issue in some cases!).

    351M and 400M engines use the 429-460 bellhousing pattern and motor mounts...so a 460 will bolt right up to the existing trans man motor mounts where a 351M or 400M were, and vice-versa.

    (Only the earliest 260 and 289 engines had an odd bellhosing bolt pattern unlike the rest of the Windsor and Cleveland engines...they used a five bolt bellhousing, but all other 289,302,255 and 351W and 351C engines can share common transmissions and motor mounts).

    It sounds a little confusing till you get used to it...I've been playing with Fords since high school, and now live in Dearborn...you can stop an old lady walking down the street in this town and she'll probably be able to tell you the differences between a Windsor, Cleveland and Modified 351 engine!!

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

     
  10. macs55
    Joined: Oct 28, 2003
    Posts: 462

    macs55
    Member

    Cool thanks for all the help on this. I have a 55 ford panel, it origianly came with a y block but I put the 351c in. The motor is really tired and I was hopeing for a quick swap with the least amout of work involved so I can rebuild the 351c and eventually put it back in. And the cost of a rebuild is outa the question right now. I don't think I could stand to have it down for too long. It was down for a week last month and I was going crazy. Well thanks again for the help. VIVA LA HAMB!!!! [​IMG]
     
  11. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    [ QUOTE ]
    I have a 55 ford panel, it origianly came with a y block but I put the 351c in.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The 302 will drop right in, but your headers & exhaust will be your biggest challenge.

    Good Luck

    [​IMG]
     
  12. yeah the headers will be a problem hehe i had a big problem on my 50 with the 351w i couldn't run any headers that were stock i'd have to customize some to fit
     
  13. shibby307
    Joined: Oct 23, 2005
    Posts: 1

    shibby307
    Member

    its not true that the 351c exchanges alot of parts with the 351m and 400. i know this for a fact. because i was told the same thing. i went to swap my new 351c with my 351m and alot of the brackets were different. and the motor mounts were alot different the bolts on the 351c went in vertically --
    and the 351 m mounts go in horizontally. l hope it helps
     
  14. lilblacktruck
    Joined: Jul 26, 2011
    Posts: 2

    lilblacktruck
    Member

    I have a 150 lightning with a 351. I replaced the original 351 with a rebuild that developed the same problem in just a few months. I want to change it for a more reliable engine like the 302. I see that it will bolt up to the transmission but I may need to modify the mounts. Will the electronics work with the 302 or would I be better off to carberate?
     
  15. alex211
    Joined: May 20, 2010
    Posts: 39

    alex211
    Member
    from NW PA

    Nice thread hijack.
     
  16. lilblacktruck
    Joined: Jul 26, 2011
    Posts: 2

    lilblacktruck
    Member

    did i do something wrong alex211?
     
  17. HOT40ROD
    Joined: Jun 16, 2006
    Posts: 961

    HOT40ROD
    Member
    from Easton, Pa

    The 1970 - 72 351 Clevelands have the same motor mount pads and bell housing bolt pattern as the SBF. In 73 they changed the motoer mounts to there own and the ball areas was changed to the 429-460 bell housing bolt pattern. I bolted a lot of early Clevelands in mustangs were either the 302 or 351W was in. The exhaust headers are a completely difference animal. Even the 2V anmd 4v had different size exhaust ports and the 2v headers would not fit the 4v or the other way around.

    The first two picture are of the early cleveland and the third is a later clevelands mounts
     

    Attached Files:

  18. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    It wasn't uncommon to put Cleveland heads on a Windsor block. The conversion isn't a major deal.
     
  19. YES. - Your first post was done without any introduction to the HAMB, it was an Off Topic Vehicle taht is not appropriate here (READ THIS http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44274 before posting anything else) not to mention the 351 in a Lightning is a Windsor motor, not a Cleveland or "M" motor and a 302 is in no way more reliable than what you have,

    Oh Yeah, and this was a 6 year old thread that he didn't "ADD" any value to as well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011
  20. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,413

    George
    Member

    Nope! As was said earlier all Cs have the SBF bell pattern. Almost all of the 351M/400s have the 429/460 pattern, some 400s made in '73 had the SBF pattern.
     
  21. fiveohnick2932
    Joined: Mar 29, 2006
    Posts: 889

    fiveohnick2932
    Member
    from Napa, Ca.

    Correct "o" mundo

    when did first gen lightnings become "traditional hot rods"???
     
  22. HOT40ROD
    Joined: Jun 16, 2006
    Posts: 961

    HOT40ROD
    Member
    from Easton, Pa

    Sorry I was off one year it was 73. And yes they were 351 M after 73 but a lot of people still call them Clevelands.
     
  23. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,413

    George
    Member

    Off by 2 years, the C was made in '74 & used in Torinos & Cougars, ect. The M started in '75.
     
  24. HOT40ROD
    Joined: Jun 16, 2006
    Posts: 961

    HOT40ROD
    Member
    from Easton, Pa

    I was talking about the cleveland with sbf bell housing. 74 had the BB bell.
     
  25. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,413

    George
    Member

    All Cs have the SBF.
     
  26. Oilcan Harry
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 906

    Oilcan Harry
    Member
    from INDY

    I've always considered myself a Ford fan but, they just seem to have gone out of their way to make things more complicated? I guess I'm spoiled by so many interchangable parts between Knuckleheads, Panheads, and Shovelheads.
     
  27. HOT40ROD
    Joined: Jun 16, 2006
    Posts: 961

    HOT40ROD
    Member
    from Easton, Pa

    The hard core ford guys did not care what year the car was. They would go by the casting numbers and the last year for the SBF bell was the D2 casting . If its a D4 casting it has the BBf bell and a .030 higher deck. You can find D4 with the same cleveland deck because back when this motor was being raced they were hard to get and a lot of guys were taking the D4 blocks and milling the deck.

    An the D4 was still called the cleveland. The D5 block was the M block. It made it difficult for buying intakes for these motors.
     
  28. tuckpoint
    Joined: Sep 9, 2006
    Posts: 45

    tuckpoint
    Member
    from omaha,nebr

    Listen to your buddy.
     
  29. HOT40ROD
    Joined: Jun 16, 2006
    Posts: 961

    HOT40ROD
    Member
    from Easton, Pa

    Another origin of the M designation may have come from where the engine blocks were cast. It follows the naming convention set forth by the 351C (Cleveland) cast at the Cleveland Foundry and 351W (Windsor) where the majority of the blocks were cast at the Windsor Casting Plant. From the introduction in the model year 1975, the 351M engine blocks (which are the same as the 400 engine block) were all produced at the Michigan Casting Center (MCC) in Flat Rock, MI or at the Cleveland Foundry (CF) also known as the Cleveland Casting Plant (CCP). To help distinguish it from the other two different 351s, the logical choice was to use the Michigan Casting Center, hence the “M” designation for 351 Michigan.
    The 351 Cleveland had a well known, good reputation in the public. For a few of years after the introduction of the 351M, Ford marketing called the engine the "351 Cleveland". This led to confusion as to what 351 version was actually in the vehicle.
    Later, car enthusiasts incorrectly referred to this engine as a "351 Midland" presumably a reference to Midland, Michigan, a city just northwest of Saginaw or reference to an iron foundry in Midland, Texas. But the Ford Motor Company never owned a “Midland” factory.
     
  30. toddc
    Joined: Nov 25, 2007
    Posts: 981

    toddc
    Member

    They did in Australia :D:D:D
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.