Hot Rods 350 chevy vs. 351 cleveland

going into a planning mode for a 1932 ford hiboy i am budgeting for. I often see them with either a 350 chevy or a 302 ford. My question to you guys would be is there any huge difference in price or performance between dropping in a 351 cleveland vs a 350 chevy? or any other issues that i might not yet grasp like better fit, etc?

 

350 Chevy. Built from 1967 to 1995 (or such-like). Very rare and expensive.
351 Cleveland. Built 1971-1972-1973. Common as grass. Cheap. And easy, like me.

Cosmo

P.S. Sarcasm is just one more service offered for free, on the HAMB

 

In my opinion, the 350 Chevy is a good, solid, reliable engine and about as exciting as a bowl of mashed potatoes. The 351 Cleveland, especially with a pair of 4V heads, will scream like a banshee and out torque the sbc all day long.

 

whats wrong with a 347 (stroker 302) or a 351 windsor which can be stroked into the 420s if you want big inch

You could built two 347s for the cost of one 351C

 

Solution:


A "Clevor" -Windsor block and Cleveland heads

posted via smoke signals made with a Mexican blanket

 

you can build a 347 Stroker from scratch for 1000 dollars? I'll take one.

How much space do you have, and what do you want. Clevelands can be had for cheap if you have a little patience in your search, I still find them at Pick n pull every few months. The odds of finding a set of closed chamber 4v heads are a little(or lot) worse, however good power can be made with 2-v heads.
Including the cost of the engine, I have about $2000 into my last one, minus the roller rockers, which I had. Mine was stock displacement, but there are stroker kits for Clevelands out there too.
The fit on the bottom should be the same, but the heads, and therefore exhaust will be wider, and require custom headers, as opposed to off the shelf parts, and induction setups are limited. The Cleveland is also Muscle car Era engine, and there is no way around that for the sake of tradition and appearance.

Chevy-cheap, unlimited options for build style, fit well, , reliable, I love em, but everyone has one. Not a Ford.

If you want to be a little different, and mess with people, build a Clevor.
http://302clevor.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-302-clevor.html
Nowadays you can make better power with a Windsor, but in the Old days, the Cleveland was it.

 

as always budget is a factor, which is what continually pushes me toward the standard built up Chevy 350. It would be cool to run the ford engine but chasing down parts and making budget are always a concern. I am formulating a "must have" list and a "would be nice" column. Right now the Ford 351 is falling into the "would be nice" territory. The ultimate goal will be a wicked but drivable split time daily driver (daily driver time shared with a modern S2000).

 

Building a sbc is going to be the easiest on the budget. HRP

 

Yep.
We got off on a tangent here. The GM offering is going to be cheaper and way easier to make look the part if you are trying to build a traditional looking car. I am biased as a rule but I have to say something, given my options if I had the clevland I would use it, it is a better engine.

 

The cleveland won't be traditional, will put you in a 1970 timeframe, that's not terrible, there were some cool builds then before it got silly. Cleveland will definately be more interesting and I'm a chevy small block guy. Since you're not locked into a traditional timeframe get aftermarket heads for the cleveland and paint them. Check out popular hot rodding's article on Jon Kaase's 400M for engine masters challenge, it was more than a street engine but you could pull some tricks for it, 400M's are cheap and used longer than 351C's. A 351C with worked 2V heads and a decent cam will run well, see what you can find

 

327 beats both of them....

 

People cop shit around here for SBC's and you are asking about a Cleveland? For this board a calendar would be a better guide.

 

That would take out the 350/400s also...

 

Yep and the 460s and the 302s and the yayhoo cup winning blown 454s and the 472 and 500 inch caddys and the 455s and the list could go on for ever.

 

Clevelands in hi-boys work just fine! Even in Model A's.

 

Chasing down parts for a Ford engine? It not a Novi or an Offy!!
The myth that Ford parts are hard to find is certainly not supported by people who actualy own them.

 

You see, 351 is like one more than a 350. Of course its better and its Ford, its like going to 11.....better!

Doc.

 

An interesting build would be to dress whichever engine you choose as a stock engine, looms and everything, make it look like it was pulled straight from a wrecked vehicle and dropped in your car in 1970.
Its your car, your build, work with whatever engine want, what you can find, and what fits your budget. It may or may not fit in here. Excellent craftsmanship and execution seems to draw acceptance on builds that stray from the time period, fab it yourself and stay away from the catalogs.

 

I have to disagree with you the mashed potatoes would be more exciting ..... SBC 265-400 are like belly buttons ( isnt it the reason why we call them this ?? ) seems like every rod has one . as much as I do not like FERds the Cleveland family are a different looker.

 

I am a HUGE Cleveland fan. I own several examples that are installed in off topic cars, have acquired a mountain of spares, and I am in full blown hoarding mode for anything I come across when I see it.

No it is not traditional, and as a rule, there is way more SBC stuff available, so generally they cost more to equip with intakes, and valve covers, but I have found many great deals over the years.

If you come across a complete 70-71 "M" code 10.5:1 compression 4V motor and perform a standard rebuild they are a solid 330-350 horse depending on cam, intake, and carb combo, but they really respond to big cams, ignition, and headers.

I attached a couple pictures.

The second one is a 408, pump gas, factory iron headed street motor that dyno'd 581 hp @ 7000. I searched for a bit to come up with the Bud Moore intake for the cool factor, but I am sure it would have topped 600 horse with one of the newer technology Roush intakes that were produced prior to the Yates C3 head program of the 80's.

The last comment I have is that the best "Bang for the Buck" intake is an Edelbrock Torker single plane. Last one I got, I picked up for $25.00 at the Mothers Day swap meet in Mansfield, Ma.

Good luck with your project, and please feel free to reach out to me if you would like any additional detail information on parts or builds.

Mike H.

 

Look at the pic above of the engine in the car. Notice the distance between the valve cover and the radiator. This is a big reason you dont see this engine used in the application you are thinking of. As HRP said, there's no way around the fact that most things for a SBC are cheaper. Good Luck with your project.

 

If budget is going to be your choke point, then the SBC will be kinder to your pocket just about every time.
As for the better motor, the 4V Clev heads flow big-block numbers. Even the 2V's flow good with a decent intake and carb combo (i.e. not the crap original 2V stuff), though they appreciate the larger valves if possible.
The bottom end on a stock Clev isn't too good for much north of 6-6500 rpm, so the big-flow heads can't really be used to their full potential without beefing up the bottom end somewhat, which is a shame.
SBC's don't flow so good (as the 4V Clev), and their bottom ends aren't really any better than the Fords (unless you start spending money on the bits that need fixing or upgrading). They are probably a better 'balanced' motor, with the top-end and bottom-end both reaching their maximum at about the same revs.
Am I biased? No. I have got a 70 4V 351 Cleveland as well as a SBC in a couple of my cars. They're both good, but unless you are going to all-out max performance (= +++$$$$$$$), then the SBC will provide you with a good useable motor for lower cost. You can use the extra bucks for some other parts you are going to need.
Anyway, that's my $0.02 - you can do whatever you want, after all, it's your car.
Cheers.

 

I am not looking for controversy, but this I do not agree with. That picture is of a full frame 73 Montego GT, and it has a huge engine compartment. That fan spacer is 3 inches long just to get the fan close enough to the radiator to work.

From a space perspective, and speaking in general terms, a Cleveland will fit anywhere a 66 up 289 with the six bolt bell housing will fit. The bell housing bolt pattern, motor mount locations, & bore spacing, are exactly the same.

As mentioned previously you can put Cleveland heads on any SBF and bolt them down.

The distance from the back of the block, to the water pump pulley face is very close also, with only a nominal increase in that dimension, depending on which pump is used.

The "general terms" I am speaking of, are related to the increased deck height, and width at the top of the motor.

For example, you can bolt a 351c into a 65 Mustang, but you will not get manifolds on it without cutting the shock towers, where as a Boss 302 will fit with a pricey set of headers.

Height is not an issue on a Model A, so I would not consider space to be an issue.

Thanks, Mike H.

 

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whats wrong with a 347 (stroker 302) or a 351 windsor which can be stroked into the 420s if you want big inch

You could built two 347s for the cost of one 351C
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you can build a 347 Stroker from scratch for 1000 dollars? I'll take one.
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By your rationale you can build a 351c for $2000??
4v engines are hard to find
2v engines small valves & low compression
Made 4 years

302s are common
347 rotating assembly from northern $833
I could accomplish the rest for another 700 or so = $1500 long block

 

Thanks for all the input guys. These kind of open end questions are always tough but i got a lot of great feedback and some really cool choices to make. Truthfully i don't think either (or any of the engines talked about for that matter) would be a mistake. It will boil down to what i can get and how much i can beef it up and shoe horn it into the deuce. Can't wait!

 

By my experience. 1800 as it sits in this picture, including ignition, pulleys, starter, just no waterpump.
73 "cobra jet" 4 bolt main block
closed chamber 4v heads
it is a basic engine,rebuilt, not overhauled, has kb pistons. Not a pissing match, but the point is, it is not dreadfully expensive to find and build a 351 Cleveland, if you have the patience to look for the right starting point, and spend your money wisely.

 

What's to think about ? Ford in a Ford. or Easy, Cheap, Anybody can do it, Almost everybody or somebody they know has one, you can buy parts for the swap instead of having to think a little, chevy in a Ford. Leave the chevy in a Ford for the guys that want easy.

 

I'm a big Ford fan but I've heard the Cleveland blocks can't be bored much, like 0.030 max. So its important to get the block sonic checked before the rebuilding process starts.

 

Ford in a Ford...what a novel idea

 

Build a fake Boss 302. Also called a Clevor. Any 289 or 302 block, Australian 2v Cleveland heads and the intake for the swap. You could use real 4v heads and a real Boss 302 intake if you wish. The Aussie heads have 2v port sizes to increase velocity but the better quench chambers.