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Featured Projects 350 Chevy or 351w into a 50 merc coupe?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Sickboys50, Sep 19, 2022.

?
  1. 350 chevy

    78 vote(s)
    61.9%
  2. 351 Windsor or Cleveland

    48 vote(s)
    38.1%
  1. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 2,956

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    There is no comparison between ease of installation of a Chevy and a Ford. You have already pointed out that just the basic rebuilding kit is a $100 more for a Ford. Then you mentioned that he should use an aftermarket oil pan. Thats another $100 for the cheapest one Summit has, and you have to wonder how well it seals and how well it's made. Of course when you go from a front sump to a rear sump, you need a different oil pick-up......$$$ Then you have to find a bell housing and clutch linkage. Not always easy to come by for a Ford. You can be blinded by your loyalty to Ford, but for a first time build the Chevy will be simpler and most likely less expensive in general. Thats what the OP is shooting for since it will be a "First Time" learning experience. There will be plenty of small problems to solve, like the electrical system and the normal wear items that will need replacement, and even the cooling system. He doesn't need to add to the problems just to satisfy mis-guided brand loyalty.

    Yes, thats a correct statement. It makes zero sense for Chevy guys to be scared of Fords.:p

    Sorry, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to twist your words. Me, I'm building a Cadillac engine to go in my car. Talk about parts difficulty............Lighten up guys, its all still just about trying to interest the younger generation in the hobby we all enjoy.:)
     
  2. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 2,212

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    If you do a little more searching on those Summit kits, you need to separate the apples from the oranges, and not just post the ones that fit your mis-guided :p agenda. They are not all "equal", some have different quality or quantities of parts. Bottom line is both the SBF and the SBC are fairly inexpensive to rebuild, if you leave out the partisan slanting o_O One thing that will make the Chebbrainwashed cry, is the fact that the SBF just flat sounds better- nothing sounds more boring than a low compression SBC crate engine with a potato cam- in my OPINION lol...
     
    Sickboys50 likes this.
  3. Roothawg
    Joined: Mar 14, 2001
    Posts: 23,165

    Roothawg
    Member

    Here’s my .02 worth. I recently called Alan Grove (the bracket mfg) and asked if he had any v belt setups for a 302. He replied “nope”. When I asked why, he replied that there were 21 different water pump configurations on a 302 and there was no such thing as a standard setup. Throw in the alternator and power steering pulley options etc. it could get discouraging in a hurry.

    Keep it simple and let him learn. He can change it to his liking when he gets a job etc. my 36 is in its third version.

    I am building my first Ford in a Ford and it is more work, but it’s what I wanted on mama’s 55.
     
  4. flatout51
    Joined: Jul 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,105

    flatout51
    Member

    Any 351 powered truck will have the pan and pickup needed. Salvage yards are full of them. Then bellhousing and linkage? You act like Salvage yards only have Chevy stuff. Or... use the AOD that probably was originally behind the 351 you got?
     
    Sickboys50 likes this.
  5. flatout51
    Joined: Jul 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,105

    flatout51
    Member

    2. There is 2 different water pumps on a 289-302 ford. Pre and post 1969. Vintage air makes a pulley set up cheap if for some reason your engine doesn't have pullies. CVF Racing is another that makes a ton of different pullies. I will say there are a TON of different pulley configurations for them. If you buy them as a set you'll be fine.
     
    Sickboys50 likes this.
  6. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,546

    George
    Member

    yup, at least 4 different lengths available, one real short.
     
    Sickboys50 and anthony myrick like this.
  7. upload_2022-9-23_17-59-20.png

    The Ford Windsor and the Cleveland engines are as different as a small block Chevy and a small block Ford.

    Nothing interchanges between the Windsor and Cleveland family of engines.

    Next what kind of transmission does he want to run the stock Merc, a latter three speed, a four, a five speed or an automatic?
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
    ekimneirbo likes this.
  8. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 2,212

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    Not true, 351C uses the same bolt pattern as the 289/302/351W 6-bolt. 351M/400 use the 429/460 pattern
     
    Rex_A_Lott likes this.
  9. RmK57
    Joined: Dec 31, 2008
    Posts: 2,181

    RmK57
    Member

    Power steering? What's that?
     
    Roothawg likes this.
  10. twenty8
    Joined: Apr 8, 2021
    Posts: 1,213

    twenty8
    Member

    The next step after the "Ford in a Ford" mentality is to jump on the "matching numbers" wagon......o_O
    Here's a clue.......... two words......... "HOT ROD".......... 'nuff said. ;)
     
  11. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 20,869

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Windsor, with Cleveland heads.
     
    Boneyard51 and flatout51 like this.
  12. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 5,469

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    A buddy of mine has this Clev-or engine in his O/T Mustang. It's a 10 second full-bodied car you could daily drive. The engine was far from a "budget" build.

    37353477_10212929459291361_3363984738900508672_n.jpg
     
    ekimneirbo likes this.
  13. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 20,869

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Whatever the engine choice is, I would search for a clapped-out donor car, with a good running engine, and smooth shifting transmission.

    That way you have a "parts store" sitting next to the build.

    Costs add up. If you have to keep chasing every little thing to make it work, it can get spendy.

    Having a donor car helps keep that under control. Scrap it when everything of use and value is stripped from it.
     
  14. flatout51
    Joined: Jul 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,105

    flatout51
    Member

    @T&A Flathead has a 289 in his 49 ford coupe with the original 3 speed overdrive and he drives it all the time everywhere.
     
  15. twenty8
    Joined: Apr 8, 2021
    Posts: 1,213

    twenty8
    Member

    Hey @Sickboys50 , there are a couple of really relevant aspects to this that everyone seems to have missed.

    1). Welcome to the HAMB, you and your son. Good to have you aboard.

    2). A '50 Merc Coupe.........:cool::cool::cool: Man, that's super cool, no matter what engine path you take.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
  16. T&A Flathead
    Joined: Apr 28, 2007
    Posts: 1,961

    T&A Flathead
    Member

    @flatout51 why anyone would put a sbc in a mercury or shoebox is strange to me. It’s just as easy to put in a Ford or something other than a cookie cutter and actually have something unique.

    upload_2022-9-23_20-8-3.jpeg
    upload_2022-9-23_20-8-3.jpeg
     
  17. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 2,212

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    Sweet! Looks like it belongs there, doesn't it? I see you also have the nice stock 221-260-early 289 aluminum water pump setup. Funny, the Chebbrainwashed insist that you can't do that! Firewall looks OK, has a shroud, fits fine- but it must be blasphemy, as it can't be done without bazillions of dollars and specialty parts- but that engine looks just like the dead-stock 260 in my 64 Falcon ragtop- except mine still has the rubber boot on the generator
     
    T&A Flathead likes this.
  18. flatout51
    Joined: Jul 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,105

    flatout51
    Member

    There it is! Such a perfect little car!
     
  19. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,547

    Truckedup
    Member

    I just don't see the big difference looks wise between SBC or SBF...If anything the Chevy without out any chrome or billet looks more vintage .....but The Ford doesn't have the distrubutor buried in the back..looks like a Mustang, :D
     
    Tman and 57JoeFoMoPar like this.
  20. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,726

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    The 350 doesn't have the big head offset and long front engine dress. A 350 is like 5/8 longer than a 59A, why do we think they ended up in so many flathead cars? An (ok enuff 350) SBC is easy to mate to the original trans. Adapters are far cheaper than other engines. 289-351 engines are ugly. Yeah, I said it. Ugly. A well dressed SBC is always ready to be prom king with the right dress up items, and again they're cheaper. Headers (or manifolds) are a no-brainer for the SBC.

    I really like this "belly button" reference that has to pop up in these talks. We were almost over the "FORD IN A FORD!!" panic not long ago then all the aftermarket and even Ford revived it. Kinda like all the new Lynard Skynard fans after the plane crash. The SBC was indeed a late 50s/60s motor. The small Ford wasn't til mid 60s if that timeline means anything. If I don't like my flatty in my 39 (I doubt it) I'm already set to raise blood pressures and adapt a SBC. A mortal sin to be sure. Oh wait, I have a belly button too. Shit...:rolleyes:
     
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  21. Bill's Auto Works and Budget36 like this.
  22. flatout51
    Joined: Jul 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,105

    flatout51
    Member

    1962. But who cares? Transmissions? I thought we were talking early 50s cars? In that they will bolt directly to a small block ford. Same bolt pattern as the toploader ford trans like in Tim's 49 pictured above. Earlier ford trans, they make adapters. I have one for 289/302 to early ford 3 speed and another for Ford FE. As for looks? That's subjective. I prefer the Ford over the Chevy. Pretty sure this conversation is played out. Comes down to personal preference, skill, and experience.
     
  23. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 2,956

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    Cutting to the chase..........
    Since OHV V8 Chevys and OHV Ford engines became the factory upgrade in the mid-1950s, I'd guess that initially there were lots of other engines besides these two that were installed in Flathead Ford cars. As time moved on, there became a trend of installing the smallblock Chevy into virtually every kind of American vehicle ever made and many off shore vehicles as well. They dominate the engine swap scene........and even the new replacement for the smallblock (LS) has followed this trend. Ford however tends to usually (not always) but usually be transplanted only in other Fords. I would guess that for every Ford transplanted into something besides a Ford, there are 9 Chevys transplanted.

    There has to be some reason for that popularity besides just brand loyalty.......actually there are a lot of reasons. Experienced hot rodders may wish to step up and deal with the issues of less common swaps, but for a first time swapping experience, keeping it simple and getting it installed with minimal hassle is important.

    The OP should just realize that the overwhelming use of Chevy engines in swaps is for a reason(s).:)
     
    Bill's Auto Works and ottoman like this.
  24. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,547

    Truckedup
    Member

    GM claims over 100 million Gen 1 small blocks produced since 1955....they have the best parts interchangability and generally lowest cost...They have run more races and won more races than any other engine..and probably more blowed up in racing than the others have won...they are not the best but will do the job ...
     
  25. nochop
    Joined: Nov 13, 2005
    Posts: 2,838

    nochop
    Member
    from norcal

    Let’s see some pictures. Welcome to the Hamb family
     
  26. flynbrian48
    Joined: Mar 10, 2008
    Posts: 7,585

    flynbrian48
    Member

    Since it's been several pages since Sickboy (the OP) has chimed in, after his (pretty simple) question, it looks like the experts have scared him off. I wonder if he'll go with the polished aluminum block cammer, the 500 Caddy, the Hemi, or rebuild the stuck, junk flat motor that have all been recommend for a high school build? Stay tuned, there's prolly more marque bashing, unlimited budget and pro-build advice yet to come!
     
    Tman, 57JoeFoMoPar, twenty8 and 4 others like this.
  27. nochop
    Joined: Nov 13, 2005
    Posts: 2,838

    nochop
    Member
    from norcal

    I hope you come back and start a build thread, we don’t bite, we want to see it
     
    theHIGHLANDER and flynbrian48 like this.
  28. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,915

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    The Small Block Chevy has always been the superior engine.
    From its introduction in '55 when it was a big step up from the Flat Head, in '62 when the 221 was introduced and the SBC had already grown to 327, and on.

    What really cracks me up when somebody posts some version of this.
    s-l1600.jpg

    Henry Ford died in 1947.

    The Small Block Chevy was introduced in 1955.

    He was undeniably a visionary, but even he could not have predicted that this engine would become the industry standard in his early cars.

    But it did.
    And it deserves to be. :)
     
  29. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 3,112

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama

    I hope Sickboys50 comes back. This is a colossal project. There's so much I want to say but I'll start with this. It's not about the engine.

    It's about the car.

    I'll be honest there's some things I don't like about this whole concept, so I'll just say it.

    A 1950 Mercury is not a daily driver for anyone, especially a 16-year-old.

    Repaired, it can be driven regularly. Never forget though it's a special car and any time it's driven is a special occasion, even just a trip down the block.


    My experience as a Dad....

    My eldest got a nice older Off Topic truck. It was a nice truck. It was a special truck, I would have loved for it to have been my truck. She loved that truck.
    On a rainy day she was driving too fast, following too close and spun it out on a bridge. The rear went into the railing, it spun, and the front also went into the railing. It could have been bad...I mean bad bad.
    She tore it up, front and rear. It was drivable after the sheet metal was pried off the tires. That nice truck in an instant went from nice truck to a piece of junk but the main thing was my baby was safe.

    Now my son...:rolleyes:
    I still do not know why. I don't know if he was pissed about his weed-eating job. I don't know if he was fooling with his phone. I don't know if he went to sleep. I still do not know what happened, but he creamed a car stopped at a redlight at hwy speed.
    Again, that one could have been bad, bad. He tore a nearly new car to pieces and sent an elderly man to the hospital.
    Never in a million years would I have thought that. I'm still at a loss for that one but he sure as heck did it.
    I thank God that they both lived through it.
    I have a nearly stock 1951 Ford Coupe.
    If my sone would have been in the Coupe instead of that Camry, he would have been killed in the same scenario.

    You don't drive a 1950 anything like it's a 5-year-old Camry or a 1993 Silverado!

    Like my '51 Coupe, a 1950 Mercury is an expert's car. It has to be driven expertly and most of this requires the attitude and experience. You don't ride in a 1950 Mercury...You drive it.

    Can a young man do this. Can a young man have the right attitude. Yes! I think he can, but it will require him building this car up from nothing...doing the dirty work, knowing the car from tire tread to healiner.....Maybe just maybe he'll have the appreciation for what it is, how dangerous it is, how special it is because he and you built it.
    You know your son; can he hang through all the hard and dirty work?

    This car is not a daily. It's bigger than that. It's a lifetime project car.

    You are quickly going to find that the engine is small potatoes. Again, it's the car. The engine is just one component.
    Easiest will always be the OEM powerplant, the 255 Mercury flathead. We know that fits.
    There's so much to do before you even get to the engine.
    [​IMG]Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr

    The first thing a project car has to do is roll, steer and stop. This is a great place to start.
    Do a complete brake rebuild. It's hard dirty work. It takes skill and there is a learning curve. You start out of the shop manual. As far as investment it's expensive but it's still minimal in grand scheme of things. Completing or attempting to complete a total brake rebuild will tell you if you and your son can hang through this project.
    Rebuild the stock 1950 brakes. Although both my children had wrecks, neither had to do with brakes. Both incidents were caused by driving foolishly.
    New brake lines...
    New shoes...
    Backing plates repaired/renewed...
    New hardware...
    New rubber hoses...
    New front axle seals and bearings re packed or replaced...
    New metal brake lines...
    Drums inspected repaired (turned) or replaced
    Rear axle inspection (seals)
    Emergency brake renewed

    This is hard, nasty and can be frustrating work.
    [​IMG]Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr

    Doing this work, you will see the condition of the chassis floor and suspension. Again, if you can accomplish this work...hang through it and solve problems.
    If there is loss of interest. Sell the car. You have not modified it and invested a lot in power plants and special zippity-doo-dah stuff you are not going to use.
    Do the brakes. Finish them and move on.
    If your son going to bail, he'll bail out over the brake job.
    It's hard ass work.
    Be safe...an old car is like the river. It can kill you in hundreds of ways...
    Chock it
    Support it
    Be safe.
    This can be such a fun project. It'll take blood sweat and tears.
    Get it rolling and stopping. It needs to roll and stop on decent tires in the shop and the yard.
    Ya'll may actually enjoy the "flathead quest"...
    If not. there're other engines...
    Besides original these are my top choices.
    Ford...
    I like early 1965-1975ish 289-302s with a C4. The C4 is compact, and it'll fit.
    Chevrolet...
    A true 1950s engine. I would prefer 1958-1975. Short water pump, ram horns, scripted valve covers. Power pack heads, Duntov Cams...It's just cool.
    The Chevy can fit the 3 speed with adapters....So can the little Ford but it might be tricky...
    Chevy autos...
    Aluminum Powerglide...similar to C-4 clearance...
    TH 350/400...a good solid proven unit.
    700R4 family may be easier to find.

    After the brakes are done. Find an engine to build up. Flathead, SBF, SBC, heck..even a Y, FE or W motor...The sky is the limit.
    Good Luck.
     
  30. I haven't read many of the previous post, so forgive me if someone has already stated something close to this. One major thing you have to think about right now is machine work. I bought some really cool big block Mopars that I had every intention of using for my project until I was told that I'd be in a year to two year waiting line for machine work.

    I'm not waiting two years for machine work, so I've had to go back to the drawing board. In my opinion, the SBC makes it to the top of my list because you can call up Jegs or Summit and have a long block SBC or running SBC delivered to your doorstep for not as much as everything else. No machining required (hopefully).
     
    Sickboys50, metalshapes and Tman like this.

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